Attn: Lawyers - Would You Do It Again?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Tony Schroeder, Aug 7, 2002.

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  1. Tony Schroeder

    Tony Schroeder New Member

    I'm nearing the end of my Bachelor's program. I'm considering a bunch of options for graduate study, including part-time law school (residentially, so as to qualify for the Ohio Bar).

    If you're a DegreeInfo participant who happens to be a lawyer (or ex-lawyer), I'd like to ask: Would you do it again? Why or why not?

    I have a good friend who is an assistant county prosecutor. He's encouraging me to consider attending law school part-time, even though it will take at least four years (full-time attendance is not an option for me). What advice might you offer?

    I'd appreciate your opinions. Just don't count them as billable hours. :)

    Regards,


    Tony
     
  2. Wes Grady

    Wes Grady New Member

    Tony, you may think that this is an easy question to answer, but it really isn't. I have been practicing law for the past 22 years, in a solo practice in the Hudson Valley of New York. I concentrate on real estate law, matrimonial law, bankruptcy law and practice some in the areas of aviation and customs. In short, I am a general practitioner.

    I left a good position in the health care field, as a hospital administrator, to attend law school, completed it full time in three years, studied for and passed the New York Bar on the first try and was admitted to practice.

    It has been rewarding financially. Once in a great while, it challenges me to actually think like a lawyer, but more often than not, like most lawyers, I go through the motions. After 22 years, it is pretty easy, really.

    Would I do it again? Honestly, I don't think I would. I don't enjoy the work, the 16 hour days, the 6 workday weeks, the clients who are angry because they didn't win all that they wanted, the clients who always feel that they are being over charged, the clients who think you only work for them and owe them your total effort, all the time, but not to the point of wanting to pay for it.

    I can't honestly say that I know one single attorney who has been practicing for more than 5 years who would say that he actually enjoys the profession. I didn't start out wanting to be an attorney, I wanted to be an architect, but couldn't afford to go to school for architecture, so I went for liberal arts and took a degree in Economics. Then a master's in health care administration and after working in the field for a number of years, and feeling like I needed more education in the law, allowed myself to be talked into law school. While in law school, I fully intended to return to health care administration and did, actually try. I took a position after being admitted to practice, but it was the wrong position at the wrong time in the wrong place and I hated it. So, I decided to try my hand at private practice and the rest, as they say, is history.

    Law school can be very stimulating and you will learn to think "like a lawyer", meaning that you can instantly size up a situation and evaluate it from multiple sides. This will stand you in good stead in a number of areas, so it isn't really necessary to actually go into practice to use the degree. The last that I heard, some 70% of law school graduates don't really practice law. The rest of us, I guess, couldn't find a decent job.

    So, if you like being the butt of an never ending string of bad jokes, like having your integrity and honest challenged by everyone and anyone, like long hours away from your family, like dealing, for the most part, with people you wouldn't socialize with under normal circumstances, then give it a shot.

    There are a lot of attorneys who are leaving the field, to become teachers, business owners, real estate brokers, bankers, farmers, etc., but there are a lot that stay in. I am 5 years away from hanging it up, if I can last that long.

    Would I do it again? not willingly.

    Wes
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thanks for sharing Wes. Your perspective is interesting. It is true that there seems to be a general feeling that lawyers are on par with used car salesman. I suppose you have to like play acting in court etc. I once took a class (Legal Issues in Mgt) where an attorney said that divorce cases were the worst and he knew attorney's that refused them because they were so draining (divorcing people sometimes loose all sense of rationality). Nonetheless, honest and ethical attorneys are needed and those do a great deal of good when law is practiced the way it should be (righting wrongs, etc.). Good attorney's save innocent people from being convicted or in some cases mistakenly sent to the electric chair.

    Wes, how do you feel about Bill O'Reilly's comments that lawyers who know their client is guilty and attempt to do anything other than guide him in a guilty plea are being unethical. I think O'Reilly has interpreted some ABA rule to say this is the way lawyers should behave. I am aware that O'Reilly has taken some heat and many lawyers think he is out to lunch on that interpretation.

    North
     
  4. Wes Grady

    Wes Grady New Member

    I think O'Reilly is out to lunch on a lot of things, this included. The prosecution must prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.... it is the attorney's duty to put forth any evidence that might exist to increase that doubt and to defend the client zealously. Guilding him to a guilty plea is absurd.

    Wes
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I was a juror for an assault and battery case where the defendant had physically attacked his wife's divorce attorney in the lobby of the court house. The divorce attorney testified but it was obvious that he didn't want to be there and was wishing that the whole thing would just go away. I certainly didn't envy his job. :)
     
  6. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Two of my friends are lawyers, and one thing they always tell me sticks out in my mind. They both wanted to change the world, and found themselves in a profession that interprets it instead. Neither complains about the money though.

    Tony
     
  7. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    As a matter of disclosure, I have to state up-front that, as a police officer of almost 15 years, I have no use for criminal defense lawyers.

    That being said, I would still agree with your statement.....if it stopped there. Unfortunately, there is no shortage of lawyers who go well beyond what you stated. Defending a client zealously and bringing forth all relevant evidence, that's the U.S. justice system at its finest.

    However....smearing a victim, playing the race card, and trying to exploit the tiniest legal loophole in order to set free a guilty defendant are just a few examples of the sleazy tactics used by defense attorneys who will never have to live in the same neighborhood as the murderer they got set free on a technicality.

    I personally think that O'Reilly may be on to something.


    Bruce
     
  8. Wes Grady

    Wes Grady New Member

    And I know 100 police officers who are worse than the criminals they try to arrest, and 100 lawyers who should be brought up on charges, and .....

    but, I wouldn't want to be around without the police, nor the criminal defense attorneys......

    Wes
     
  9. Starkman

    Starkman New Member

    Thinking like a lawyer

    Say Wes,

    Could you offer us some ideas about books and distant-learning courses (that being over the Net, accredited/unaccredited, etc.) that can help someone to think more like a lawyer. I like reading fiction centered around a lawyer's smarts--just read "The Resurrection File" by Craig Parshall, very good--and I'd love to develop something of this kind of thinking; because, as you said, it carries over to other areas besides legal practice. It's good just to be able to think clearly from many angles. (We're not talking here about doing 4 years of school, mind you, just some good references!)

    Thanks much,

    Starkman
     
  10. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    My Two Cents...

    My parents are divorcing and have already spent over 100,000 dollars in legal fees. So, yes, there is money to be made as a lawyer. :rolleyes:

    From what I read, 76% of all the lawyers in the world reside in the United States. The United States could always use another good lawyer. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2002
  11. Tony Schroeder

    Tony Schroeder New Member

    Thanks!

    Wes, Bill, North, Bruce, Tony & Art -

    Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I'm soaking in the information.

    Regards,


    Tony
     
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Given the choice, I'd still prefer to hang around with cops. We have a better sense of humor, and will buy a round once in awhile. :D


    Bruce
     
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    True, but I bet that it's still fun to throw in some good ad hominem slurs when out of ear shot. :D ;)
     
  14. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Ouch!

    They teach the police to ”just answer the defense attorney’s questions” while on the stand and ”don’t try to second guess him with your answers.” However, many of us have tried to do exactly that! Some of us have won and some of us have lost.

    I’ve made some defense attorney’s look like idiots. However, some defense attorney’s have made me look like a a royal, certified jackass. I can’t think of a worse feeling then to be sitting in the examination chair in a court with the court officers and spectators watching you get grilled. It can be brutal.

    Then there is civil court. Officers rarely testify in civil court, but I have had this unsavory experience and can vouch that it is a totally different then criminal court!!!

    I detest going to court.
     
  15. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    I love being a lawyer! After 16 years, mostly criminal defense, I find every day challenging and interesting. It is also a chance to help people in trouble, sometimes people that NO ONE else would care to talk to, let alone assist.
    I recommend the law!

    Nosborne, JD
     
  16. Starkman

    Starkman New Member

    Hey Nosborne,

    Say, if you note above, I've posted a question to Wes. What suggestions, if any, can you offer?

    Thanks much,

    Starkman
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Ouch!

    It is no fun. Attorney's are not expected to be straight forward and fact oriented so part of what the unitiated are subject to are attempts to manipulate witnesses to distort what is being said and to do anything necessary to achieve a victory for the attorney. I have seen them looking at witnesses and making *you are stupid facial expressions* and anything necessary to make witnesses look incompetent. Part of being a good courtroom attorney is to be a good actor. That is why when you take courses on testifying they warn you about attorney tactics like firing questions at you, mispronouncing your name to get you to focus on that, asking trap questions, etc.

    One of the funniest things was when the attorney making the facial expressions won his case (real jerk) he then went and shook hands with the other attorney and tried to make *nice nice* like it is all a game and I guess in a sense it is for them.

    North
     
  18. Wes Grady

    Wes Grady New Member

    Re: Thinking like a lawyer

    I know of no such book, no such course. It comes from years of briefing cases, posing arguments and rebuttals and learning to anticipate what is generally unknown. That is the one big plus to traditional law school, the Socratic method of teaching. DL schools will never be able to teach it.... which may be why the ABA has been so opposed to DL for the JD.

    Wes
     
  19. Wes Grady

    Wes Grady New Member

    I am predominately a civil attorney. Oh, and I have the pleasure of being the attorney for the chief of police.....so, I guess I must have bought a round sometime.....;)

    Wes
     
  20. Lynette Brege

    Lynette Brege New Member


    Do you ever have a problem dealing with the thought that a guilty defendant that you got off may go out and hurt another innocent person? Or do you put it out of your mind? :confused:

    I've always wondered how criminal defense attorneys handle that.

    Lynette
     

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