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  1. #49
    03310151 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac Craniac View Post
    Please correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that they were not approved, per se, only it was determined that the current wording of the law does not apply to banning them, meaning that new legislation would have to be drafted to ban them.

    You might be correct, and I misspoke. Johann posted an article about them just recently and what the ATF recommended, seems a little slippery.


    I'm guessing with the NRA distancing themselves from them that they will be banned soon.

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  3. #50
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03310151 View Post
    ...Johann posted an article about them just recently and what the ATF recommended, seems a little slippery.

    I'm guessing with the NRA distancing themselves from them that they will be banned soon.
    From the Article:

    “It’s a goofy little doodad,” said Rick Vasquez, the former firearms official who first signed off on a recommendation that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives need not regulate the devices. (Emphasis mine - J.)

    As Vasquez reasoned, the invention did not technically alter a gun’s trigger mechanism, as earlier attempts had, with springs, hydraulics or electric current. So it did not infringe on a law that bans the sale of machine guns manufactured after 1986 and restricts the sale of those made before then. (Emphasis mine - J.)

    Cory, I'm guessing that you're right. The device itself is not a firearm - and NRA appears to be stepping aside. That's why people are in a hurry to buy them. I think sale of them may be made illegal quite soon, in a flurry of political grandstanding and showmanship.

    J.
    Last edited by Johann; 10-06-2017 at 03:09 PM.

  4. #51
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann
    I think sale of them may be made illegal quite soon..
    ...or at the very least, regulated, (possibly out of existence?). If ATFE, in its infinite wisdom, can recommend that it need not regulate the device, surely it can rescind its recommendation and go the other way, if it finds such a change necessary?

    Looks like a device that could be home-made without too much trouble... In fact there are Youtube videos re: home-made bump stocks. I'll leave you to find them...

    J.
    Last edited by Johann; 10-06-2017 at 03:22 PM.

  5. #52
    Bruce is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    aaand made it easier for people with mental illness to obtain firearms. It would have been pretty simple to carve them out by crafting the language in the bill but they didn't bother because, well maybe it was just too much like work.
    You do know that not everyone with mental illness is a psychotic spree killer, right? Do you think someone with a mental illness as innocuous as agoraphobia should be Federally prohibited from firearms possession?

    And, you do know that every state already had provisions to prevent the dangerously mentally ill from obtaining firearms, right?

    Or was that too much work to research, and trying to make the President look bad was more important than accuracy?
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  6. #53
    Phdtobe is offline Registered User
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    The incident in vegas is definitely a tragedy.

    In the USA, I can't say for sure if I see it from other countries' tragedies but I noticed excessive amount of self congratulatory and laudatory statements by officials at news briefings. It goes beyond a professional thank you and almost like a pat on the back for doing a great job for responding to a tragedy e.g. for cooperating with other agencies, or even for hospitals staff doing their job. It just an observation , no opinion on it being a bad thing.

  7. #54
    jhp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    You do know that not everyone with mental illness is a psychotic spree killer, right? Do you think someone with a mental illness as innocuous as agoraphobia should be Federally prohibited from firearms possession?

    And, you do know that every state already had provisions to prevent the dangerously mentally ill from obtaining firearms, right?

    Or was that too much work to research, and trying to make the President look bad was more important than accuracy?
    I remember some countries where mental illness was used to restrict citizens in all different ways. . .

  8. #55
    jhp
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    To dwell into one of the things 2A defenders may fear is the memory of totalitarian societies where weapons were confiscated first...

    Guarantee me that after weapon confiscation, the mental illness lists will not be used to restrict my other G*d given rights,
    guarantee that the government will not oppress what I may say or write,
    guarantee that the government will not meddle in my faith,
    guarantee that the government will not restrict or force my movement within the federation,
    guarantee that the government will not indoctrinate my children in ways I find abhorent,
    and I will vote to repeal the 2nd amendment.

    And, when I mean government, I do not mean just the letter of the law, but overzealous prosecutors, law enforcement officers or bored bureaucrats.

  9. #56
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhp View Post
    I remember some countries where mental illness was used to restrict citizens in all different ways. . .
    Good point, but aren't you forgetting the fact that history never, ever, ever repeats itself ← joke

    I think it's similar to the problem with the no-fly list. No due process. Hardly any recourse to correct errors.

    If there were a law on the books that prevented "mentally ill people" from getting firearms, you can then use it as a political tool by either changing what is meant by "mentally ill" to suit your agenda or to label someone you don't like as "mentally ill" to suit your agenda.

    I don't think anyone wants a paranoid schizophrenic or a sociopath getting firearms. However, you'd have to get a diagnosis, first. Unless someone is either forcefully detained (in prison or institutionalized) or volunteers to seek treatment, you have no way of getting that diagnosis. In any case, that leaves the people who are not in custody and not seeking treatment- the most potentially dangerous- still without any barrier to getting the firearm. Would that not defeat the point of such a law?

    As usual, I'm not arguing for or against the law or any political view on the matter. I'm just emphasizing that it's not as easy as OMG COMMON SENSE DUH as all too many pundits would like to claim.
    BA, Social Sciences ---- The University Formerly Known As Thomas Edison State College

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  11. #57
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    You do know that not everyone with mental illness is a psychotic spree killer, right? Do you think someone with a mental illness as innocuous as agoraphobia should be Federally prohibited from firearms possession?And, you do know that every state already had provisions to prevent the dangerously mentally ill from obtaining firearms, right?
    OK, so you don't want to do this. You don't want to do that. Every proposed solution is off the table as far as you're concerned. So what do you propose? You're a Police Officer with a Masters degree in Forensic Psychology . What do you think should be done to solve this problem. Or maybe you don't want to do anything? You tell me the answer.
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  12. #58
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Investigators believe Las Vegas gunman had severe undiagnosed mental illness

    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

  13. #59
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    The lesson here is to ignore the shrinks and listen to the hookers. And bartenders. Something like that.

  14. #60
    Maniac Craniac is offline Moderator
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    If true, it leads me back to the question of how to determine the mental illness of a law abiding (before the massacre) private citizen who doesn't voluntarily seek treatment. :\

    There is widescale agreement that the mental health system needs to be fixed, but just how much fixing will make a difference in our collective safety? :\
    BA, Social Sciences ---- The University Formerly Known As Thomas Edison State College

    If you're tired of starting over, STOP GIVING UP!!! -Shia LaBoeuf

  15. #61
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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  16. #62
    decimon is offline Registered User
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    Pap. I'd listen to what the hooker said of him.

  17. #63
    Abner is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by decimon View Post
    The lesson here is to ignore the shrinks and listen to the hookers. And bartenders. Something like that.
    Or a man's barber.
    XVI.8: Confucius said, "There are three things of which the superior man stand in awe. He stands in awe of the ordinances of Heaven. He stands in awe of great men. He stands in awe of the words of the sages. The mean man does not know the ordinances of Heaven, and consequently does not stand in awe of them. He is disrespectful to great men. He makes sport of the words of the sages."

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  19. #64
    jhp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abner View Post
    Or a man's barber.
    This video is extremely relevant. Exposes the underbelly of much of the major issues in life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmFLsF8WpkE

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