Rice University opts out of Texas 'campus carry' gun law

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Abner, Dec 1, 2015.

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  1. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Rice University opts out of Texas 'campus carry' gun law

    Guns in school? I can see accidental shootings occurring, among other things. At least cops have POST requirements and are required to prove their shooting skills periodically (recertify?) I could go get a concealed gun permit, but I have not had special training like a cop or a soldier (Does the average person with a concealed gun permit have special training?) . I will admit I like going to the shooting range though. :) .

    I ask these questions because I am ignorant in some of these matters, no sarcasm is meant. :)

    Abner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2015
  2. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    The initial training and re-certification laws/rules for concealed carry vary by state, some are much more stringent than others. This is true of police agencies too, the training is far from standardized and you would probably be appalled if you saw just how minimal your local LEO training might be (at least I was appalled when I used to be close to such things). Just as in the civilian world, there are cops who are into guns and there are cops who only carry them because they have to.

    There are certainly advanced gun schools/combatives programs out there for civilians.

    I suspect if you live in one of those states with relatively liberal gun laws you have been near a CCW carrier. I don't often hear of negligent discharges or of those folks acting out and I suspect it's safer overall than you might think at first blush...but of course there is potential for an accident to happen.
     
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I used to carry when I lived in Pennsylvania (which has very liberal gun laws). Going to the firing range was a nightmare and one of the reasons I stopped carrying and ultimately dropped the hobby of target shooting.

    It was entirely too common to find someone at the range practicing a "cowboy quick draw" or trying to fire a handgun while holding it upside down or any combination of unsafe behaviors.

    And on at least four separate occasions I looked to the other shooters, advised I was walking down range to adjust targets, received verbal confirmation that the range was "cold" only to see someone firing as I stood at the target. When confronted they almost always said something to the effect of "You're all the way over on that side of the range, I'm firing over here."

    I don't mean for this anecdote to imply that "all" or "most" gun owners handle their weapons unsafely. But unsafe weapons handling does occur and occurs with a frequency that should make people, who value safety, uncomfortable.
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Banning citizens from carrying concealed weapons certainly worked well in Paris, didn't it?

    I'm sure that Rice University's "Gun Free Zone" signs will deter the lunatics bent on mass murder. They certainly don't want to get in trouble for violating a gun free zone, right?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Thank you for pointing out why the whole "transgender restroom" issue is a farce. However, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Rice University isn't making their school a "gun free zone" to keep mass killers at bay. They are doing it to keep people from carrying concealed weapons onto their premises. That's it.

    If I owned a deli and prohibited people from entering my store topless it would be because I don't want topless individuals in my store not because I think I'm going to prevent a streaker from running through the place.

    Second, and perhaps more importantly, you seem to feel that an armed populace would have prevented the Paris attacks. Yet, Colorado is one of the easiest states to get a gun in our country. And they've had, wait, how many attacks now?

    Let's also not forget how often police officers get killed in these attacks (such as in Colorado Springs most recently). Is it truly your contention that an untrained armed citizen is going to do something that a trained law enforcement officer was incapable of doing?

    Here's the really big problem with the concealed carry heroes, Bruce, when police do respond to a shooting how are they supposed to identify the good guys with the guns from the bad guys with the guns?

    Virginia Tech wasn't a "gun free" zone. It is patrolled by armed campus police officers. Columbine had armed security guards. The World Trade Center, during both terrorist attacks, was routinely patrolled by the Port Authority Police (who had a sub-station in the building). And yet, these situations all occurred despite the presence of "good guys with guns."

    And, incidentally, Rice University is not a "gun free zone" either, they have an armed police department.

    Show me a situation where a good guy with a gun thwarted a mass shooting, please. Bonus points if you can point to one in gun-happy Colorado. But hey, you probably feel like those kindergartners at Sandy Hook would still be alive if they had each been packing, right?
     
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Deleted
    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2015
  8. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    When I was in the Navy there was this really short guy (I think around 5'00") we used to hang out with. He was a fellow sailor. He was of average build. And he pretty much owned the fact that he would likely not intimidate people the same way a big guy might, even if he was armed.

    So, one day we're in a bar and this guy starts getting drunk and pushy and he tells our friend and colleague "I'm gonna kick your ass!" So, this guy, without skipping a beat, bulges his eyes out and in the creepiest smile I've ever seen, hisses out "I'm gonna eat your face!" The drunk guy was shocked. He looked genuinely afraid and quickly spirited off into the night. We all thought this was hilarious and asked him about it. He immediately dropped the crazy face and went back to his drink and said "Dude, I'm like 5 foot nothing, I'm never going to scare people off by puffing out my chest. But if I make them think I'm crazy to the point of being able to hurt them no matter how badly they hurt me..."

    This woman handled herself with confidence when her attackers expected fear. That unnerved them and they ran off.

    Bernie Goetz just started shooting.

    Both achieve the same result, mind you. But I personally prefer approaches that don't end in death and injury (even if the parties killed or injured invite it upon themselves by engaging in criminal behavior).
     
  10. major56

    major56 Active Member

    And only the law-abiding people will adhere to such ordinance policy at Rice. So we’re essentially right back to Bruce’s earlier point of contention re the largely ludicrousness (typically a knee-jerk response, as well as, an overall ruse under the guise of campus security) as to attaining actual or even predictable value in “gun-free” zoning. Bottom-line, the Rice policy will simply impose further /surplus restrictions on CHL holders—materially accomplishing zilch—pretenses to heightening campus security.
     
  11. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    One of the best ways to train with a firearm is to:
    1. Find a safe, isolated location where you can practice freely and comfortably.
    2. "Walk through" all of your gun motions, several times, first with an unloaded gun to develop muscle memory. Walk through in slow motion, in medium motion and in fast motion. "Walking through" all of your gun motions can include:
    a) Un-holstering your weapon and pointing it at the target.
    b) Un-holstering your weapon with your eyes closed. Re-holster with eyes closed.
    c) Face away from the target (or sideways from the target) and then turn your body towards the target, while simultaneously un-holstering and pointing the firearm at the target.
    d) Develop your own blindfolded, slow motion, muscle memory scenarios to practice with (using an unloaded firearm).

    An important key is to first develop slow-motion muscle memory with your eyes closed; practice with an unloaded gun while learning this technique. Eventually, if you learn the muscle memory, then in an emergency, you will be more apt to know what you're doing -- instead of fumbling with a loaded firearm that you're uncomfortable with.

    Practice slow-motion, medium-motion and fast-motion techniques as many times as is necessary, until you have it memorized with your eyes closed.

    It can be as advanced as you want it to be. The goal is to learn to be safe in all conditions -- and that begins with relaxed slow-motion practice.

    It's all about curbing liability and increasing safety for all involved. Everybody has an opinion and this is just one.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Congratulations, you've just pointed out what it means for one to "break the law." It's true, only law abiding citizens are going to follow an ordinance. That, major, is an incredible insight on your part. I think maybe you should write a paper about it.

    "FLASH: Only criminals break laws"

    I'm really glad you were able to decipher that truth for us. I mean, after all, if a law abiding citizen doesn't follow the law then they too become a criminal! This is pure gold.

    Here's the problem with your and Bruce's assertion: the "good guy with the gun" has never prevented a mass shooting.

    Again, Columbine had armed guards on campus. Virginia Tech had armed campus police.

    Hey, remember that shooting at the college in Oregon? The supposed gun-free zone?

    Well, not only did it have armed campus police but it also had people on campus (law abiding citizens) who were carrying concealed weapons!

    The one they interviewed stated that he didn't attempt to intervene because he didn't feel he could safely do so.

    You're talking about a chaotic situation where even a trained law enforcement officer might accidentally shoot an innocent bystander. But you actually cling to the fantasy that an untrained person is going to leap to the rescue and take down an active shooter? And, even if he does, how exactly does the NEXT good guy with a gun know that HE isn't the active shooter?

    C'mon, Major. Let's be real.

    The majority of these shootings aren't in "gun free zones." Colorado is one of the most gun-friendly states in the U.S. And, at a school, aside from having armed guards (a reasonable step to maintain safety, I believe) who, exactly, do you imagine the gun policy is keeping from carrying? I'm talking about a high school here. What, do you think every teacher with a gun on his hip is going to prevent another mass shooting? What if the shooter is a teacher? Or should we just start arming up the kids? I mena, 21 is a little old. It isn't in the constitution. It could be part of Freshman orientation.

    "Pick up your class schedules, your gym shorts and your choice of handgun from Coach Neuhaus on the other side of the cafeteria!"
     
  13. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    Thanks for the tips! I have been practicing my breathing technique while using my empty gun. Then I focus on a target and fire. I also meditate and visualize shooting at night right before I fall asleep. I find this helps.

    One of the things I have noticed is that shooting is not cheap. First, you have to pay for the shooting range, then you got a buy a bunch of bullets. You can go through 50 bullets mighty quick. I have been buying the reloads and it is a bit cheaper. My uncle left me his service revolver. Along with it came a couple of quick loaders. The are full of these silver bullets (hollow points?). I have always wondered what it would be like to shoot one of these bullets. I don't think they allow it at the shooting range though. Maybe I will shoot one way out in dessert just to see what it does. :)
     
  14. AV8R

    AV8R Active Member

    It happens more often than most realize. These occurrences rarely make the national news because the threat is usually neutralized before significant damage/deaths occur (just not newsworthy enough). And of course, these occurrences also don't tow the liberal line that all guns are evil and good guys carrying guns never stop bad stuff from happening. Therefore the major news networks sweep this stuff under the rug and never even mention them.


    Pearl High School, Oct. 1, 1997

    Luke Woodham fatally stabbed his mother at home before opening fire at his high school, killing two students and injuring seven others. The attack was stopped when Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved his .45 caliber handgun from his truck and confronted Woodham, detaining him until authorities could arrive. Myrick’s action stopped Woodham from going across the street to the middle school as he had planned.


    Parker Middle School, April 24, 1998

    A 14-year-old student showed up to his middle school dance carrying a .25-caliber pistol. He opened fire inside the dance, killing one teacher and wounding another as well as two students. The rampage ended when James Strand, owner of the banquet hall the dance was happening in, grabbed his personal shotgun and confronted the 14-year-old killer. Strand held the teen at gunpoint for 11 minutes before finally getting him to drop the weapon and lie on the ground and searching him for additional weapons.


    Appalachian School of Law, Jan. 16, 2002

    A 43-year-old former student armed with a .380 handgun killed Dean Anthony Sutin and Professor Thomas Blackwell with point blank shots and went on to kill fellow student Angela Dales as well as wounding three others before being confronted at gunpoint by law students Tracy Bridges, a county sheriff’s deputy, and Mikael Gross, a police officer, after retrieving their personal handguns from their vehicles. The gunman was then apprehended by other students.

    Gross and Bridges lost valuable response time accessing their handguns because of the law school’s standing as a gun-free zone.


    New Life Church, Dec. 9, 2007

    2 parishioners were killed and 3 wounded when a gunman toting a Bushmaster AR-15 opened fire at New Hope Church. Hearing the rifle fire, Jeanne Assam grabbed her personal concealed carry firearm and confronted the gunman from a distance of 20 yards. The gunman shoots at Assam. Assam shoots back, sending him to the floor and wounding him. The gunman then pulls out a grenade and attempts to pull the pin. Assam shoots again, killing him.


    New York Mills AT&T Store, May 27, 2010

    A 79-year-old man entered an AT&T store in New York Mills, New York carrying a .357 magnum revolver in his hand and a list of employees he planned to kill in his pocket. Hearing the hand cannon go off, Donald J. Moore drew his own personal weapon and killed the gunman before he could complete his plan. One employee was wounded in the shooting.


    Sullivan Central High School, August 30, 2010

    When a 62-year-old man armed with two handguns forced his way into Sullivan Central High School in Tennessee, he was immediately engaged by School Resource Officer Carolyn Gudger. Gudger put her body between the gunman and a student and started what would turn out to be a more than 10 minute gun-to-gun encounter. Gudger used the time to slowly move the man to a less crowded part of the school. When other officers arrived on the scene, a brief gun battle erupted ending with the gunman mortally wounded.


    Freewill Baptist Church, March 25, 2012

    Aaron Guyton was inside the recreation building of his grandfather’s church when he saw Jessie Gates, a member of the congregation, pulling a shotgun from his vehicle. Guyton leapt into action, locking the doors to the church where services were going on. Gates kicked in the door and pointed the shotgun at Rev. Henry Guyton and several parishioners. Drawing his concealed handgun, the younger Guyton held Gates at gunpoint while two members of the church took him to the ground. Rev. Guyton then took the shotgun from his hand.


    Clackamas Town Center Mall, Dec. 11, 2012

    Two people were killed and a third was seriously wounded at Clackamas Town Center near Portland, Oregon when a rifle-toting gunman opened fire in in the busy food court. Nick Meli, a shopper in the mall, drew a personally owned firearm on the gunman, who immediately retreated to a service corridor and killed himself. Meli did not fire his weapon for fear of striking bystanders yet authorities say his actions caused the gunman to cease his attack and end his own life.


    Mystic Strip Club, January 11, 2014

    After being refused entry to the strip club for belligerent behavior and racist comments earlir in the night, Thomas Elliott Hjelmeland returned carrying a handgun and wearing a Halloween mask. As soon as he entered the club, Hjelmeland opened fire, striking bouncer Brian Rizzo, a patron, and a waitress. Another bouncer, Jonathan Baer drew his concealed handgun and shot Hjelmeland, killing him.


    Austin, Texas Construction Site, April 30, 2014

    An irate former employee came to a construction site and opened fire on his co-workers. The site’s foreman, a Concealed Handgun License holder, drew his firearm and opened fire. Both men were wounded in the exchange of gunfire but the foreman’s actions ended the attack and no one else was wounded.


    Cache Valley Hospital, May 16, 2014

    Armed with two handguns, a man entered the Cache Valley Hospital emergency room and began making demands. After demanding to see a doctor, he racked the slide on one of his handguns and told hospital employees “someone is going to die today”. While a security guard tried to keep the gunman’s focus on him, two corrections officers who happened to be at the hospital on an unrelated matter engaged from another direction. The gunman was shot three times and no other people were harmed.


    Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital, July 25, 2014

    A patient at a psychiatric clinic killed his case worker at point blank range and then turned his gun on his doctor, Lee Silverman, striking him several times. Before the gunman could leave the office and continue his rampage, Dr. Silverman drew his own concealed handgun and pumped three rounds into the gunman’s torso, mortally wounding him. Police and hospital staff hail Dr. Silverman as a hero and credit him with saving dozens of lives.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2015
  15. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    If a crime was stopped by armed civilians how would you ever hear about it...by definition it was stopped before it got bad.

    Here's another one I like, and the good guy never uses a weapon at all....http://i.imgur.com/nFSPoJs.gifv

    Guns are tools, nothing more nothing less.

    Nice list AV8R.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2015
  16. jhp

    jhp Member

    Please do NOT DO THIS, unless you already have some training.

    This is how people shoot themselves, or worse, their dog.

     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    As stated before (very well by AVR8), armed citizens prevent crimes on a daily basis. Sometimes, the mere presence of a gun in the hands of a citizen stops crime before it happens, and you very, very rarely see those stories in the media, except perhaps local coverage.

    The NRA keeps a very informal tally of these incidents, from local news items sent in by members;

    https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2015
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Gun ownership rates are positively and significantly correlated to gunshot deaths. Anecdotes only prove the possible, not the probably or the frequent.
     
  19. AV8R

    AV8R Active Member

    If this is true, then why does Switzerland have one of the lowest rates of gun crimes in the world? The Swiss have mandated by law that its citizenry be armed. The citizenry is the country's military and all families must keep guns in their homes.
     
  20. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

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