R.I.P. Tony Gwynn

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Rich Douglas, Jun 17, 2014.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My hometown hero, Tony Gwynn, died today at the age of 54. Cancer in the saliva gland, attributed to his long habit of using smokeless tobacco.

    Tony was the greatest hitter of the modern era. No one who played after 1940 hit as high as he did (.338 BA). He struck out only 450 or so times in his career, a mark some batters reach in fewer than 3 years. His 8 batting titles tied the NL's record (with Rogers Hornsby). He had 3,000 hits in fewer at bats than almost anyone. In his youth he was both a terrific base stealer and an Gold Glove (5 times) outfielder. But....

    He should be noted for two other things. First, he played his entire 20-year career with one team, the San Diego Padres. He routinely gave up more lucrative offers in order to stay home. (He was a basketball and baseball hero at San Diego State U.) Also, Tony took up the reins as manager of SDSU's baseball team when its legendary manager, Jim Dietz, retired. How many Hall-of-Fame players do that? He was our treasure.

    Tony batted at or above .309 for 19 years in a row, an NL record. It just goes on and on (like I do about Tony).

    I shall miss him so. :sad:
     
  2. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I was completely shocked to find this out this morning (sadly, much more shocked than I had been for the mass shootings in the news lately, but that's another series of threads altogether). I hadn't heard anything from nor about him in years and had no idea that he was going through so much for so long.

    You did a great job of summarizing his career. I have nothing I can add to that. I will say that I always loved his voice and that he is one of a very few pro baseball players that struck me as genuinely nice people.

    For those who haven't heard of him, I just found this old interview on YouTube. Just a minute or two will do to see what I'm talking about. Great voice and great story teller. Tell me you wouldn't just have loved to invite this guy over for a bbq!

    [video=youtube;JkrlQyN9qQA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkrlQyN9qQA[/video]
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The greatest pitcher of our time, Greg Maddux, faced the greatest hitter of our time, Tony Gwynn, in 107 at bats. Gwynn did not strike out once, and hit Maddux at .415. And that's just one of the stories of this great legend.
     
  4. FJD

    FJD Member

    I grew up on the other side of the country, but I always made a point to watch Tony hit whenever I could. I recall rooting for the Padres in the 1984 World Series against the Tigers as a kid and rooting against him in the 1998 WS as an adult. I am genuinely sad to hear about his passing. He is truly a legendary figure in baseball history.
     
  5. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    A great player and good man. Another story about Tony Gwynn was in one of his first games in the big leagues he was playing against the Cincinnati Reds and was 2 for 4 in that game. When he was within earshot of Pete Rose at the time, Rose asked him if he was trying to break his hitting record in this one game. What a loss.
     
  6. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I'm glad that Gwynn pulled no punches in attributing his oral cancer to many years of using chewing tobacco. The Centers for Disease Control point out that 20% of high school boys (and 2% of girls) chew tobacco. How many will take notice?

    -John Bear, whose Uncle Ben maintained that he was safe, because he almost never lit the pipe that was almost always in his mouth.
    Died of lip cancer at 62.
     
  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    You know John, when I saw that you posted in this thread, I was expecting a story about how you met him one day and you gave him pointers on his swing mechanics :biggrin:

    This is actually shocking. I've never seen teenagers chew and had no idea it was going on.

    Sadly, no matter how many former smokers and chewers warn others not to follow in their path, there will always be those who laugh and say "I know I'm getting cancer one day" as they reach for another.

    Wow.

    And who would think- of all things- that lip cancer would be deadly. Obviously cancer of any type is to be taken seriously, but it sounds to be a lot more painful and deforming than it would be deadly. :irked:
     
  8. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    MC: "And who would think- of all things- that lip cancer would be deadly. Obviously cancer of any type is to be taken seriously, but it sounds to be a lot more painful and deforming than it would be deadly."

    John: "Oral cancer" is a catch-all term, including cancer of the mouth, tongue, lip, throat, and larynx. Don't know which subset Gwynn had. The Centers for Disease Control say that "survival rates are among the lowest of major cancers. Only one-half the number of persons diagnosed with oral cancer are alive five years after the diagnosis." (http://tinyurl/lipcancer). Here's more from CDC: "In the United States...oral cancer accounts for two to five percent of all cancers ... compared with ... 50 percent in India..." One in three case are female, way up from one in six in 1975.

    Babe Ruth died of oral cancer at age 53. He regularly endorsed both chewing tobacco and cigars.
    http://www.pophistorydig.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pinch-hit-chew-300.jpg
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It's been going on for a long, long time. It's a widespread baseball thing, at all leagues and levels, apparently. I remember seeing a TV documentary on the subject around 25 years ago. One victim they showed was a young fellow still in his teens, IIRC. He contracted cancer after maybe 3 - 5 years of chewing, while playing baseball - he was serious about his sport and imitating his elders. Fortunately, he survived, but the effects of the surgery will be on his face for a lifetime.

    From www.cancer.gov: "Chewing tobacco and snuff contain 28 cancer-causing agents..."

    Since Tony Gwynn's death, people are apparently asking if there will be a ban on the use of these products in the major leagues. It's all over "Google" etc.

    A cautionary tale.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2014
  10. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for the info.

    From what I've read this past week, tobacco has been a part of the baseball tradition since the very first games ever played in the mid 1800s. The players claim that it keeps their mouth moist :confused: I don't see why they couldn't use bubble gum instead, in fact, a lot of them do which leaves the rest without any good excuse.
     
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Good presentation here (40 page pdf) on the history of tobacco & baseball. Apparently, chewing had a resurgence in the 70s. It appears the great Mickey Mantle once endorsed a smoking cessation product and was required to start his script with "I have nothing against smoking, but...."

    http://www.smokelesstobaccosummit.com/wp-content/uploads/42.Silverstein.pdf

    In the 2012 MLB season, restrictions (not a ban) were placed on the use of smokeless tobacco by players. How innocuous-sounding: "smokeless tobacco." Coined by the makers and sellers, for obvious reasons.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2014
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Some do. Also, many, many eat sunflower seeds. But the culture persists.

    The change in views regarding smokeless tobacco are pretty recent. I remember it being advertised for years in places (like TV) where cigarette ads had been banned.

    Big League Chew, a bubblegum product that comes shredded and in a pouch--just like chewing tobacco--was introduced in 1980 and is still sold. It seems to me to be the moral equivalent of candy cigarettes, but so it goes.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Gwynn’s Chewing Tobacco Death Renews Baseball Ban Call:

    Click here for article: Gwynn
     
  14. major56

    major56 Active Member

    I also recognize, as did Tony Gwynn, the potential health risks associated with using smokeless tobacco products. As an adult, Tony Gwynn made the choice (his to make) whether or not to use a legal product.

    P.S. The best natural hitter I’ve seen in my lifetime …
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2014
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is a choice. But it's also a testament to the incredible power of nicotine addiction.

    And, perhaps, given the decades of false advertising, marketing to children, and phony science the tobacco industry has engaged in, they've lost their right to be a "legal product." Normally, I'm an advocate for the elimination of all anti-drug laws, but the tobacco industry did so much purposeful harm for so long, I wonder. Not because they sell a drug--I'm cool with that. But because of all of the malfeasance they've engaged in and the harm it has brought. I am grateful that we, as a society, have clamped down on them tremendously. Perhaps that's enough? After all, if you start using tobacco products today, surely it's with the full knowledge of their dangers.

    I still miss Tony.
     
  16. major56

    major56 Active Member

    True Rich … however, there are a lot of addictions (legal and illegal) individuals can /do engage in. And yes, there is malfeasance in too many industries (governments and regulators included).
     
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    If tobacco companies have done illegal things, then those who run or ran those companies should face the consequences. But making tobacco illegal would basically be a giant subsidy for the Mafia, just as any prohibition of popular goods is.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Perhaps. But unlike a lot of drugs, tobacco is hard to make and move on a small scale without incredibly increasing prices. Anyone can make meth or grow dope or brew beer, but you need a very big place in order to grow tobacco--hardly inconspicuous. And the amount of the drug necessary to maintain one's addiction to it is large.

    I'm not really in favor of banning it. But the drug's cultivation and sale has huge externalities associated with it--costs that are borne by others. As a society, we pay a huge price for it, even though most of us don't use it. I'd like to see the costs shifted back to the manufacturers and users. Then, I don't care who uses it.
     
  19. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Cigarette and tobacco product tax revenues are BIG business at both the state and federal levels; a revenue enterprise /partnership among the tobacco industry and governments. Follow the money …
     
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It's done pretty easily here in Canada. It's estimated half the cigarettes smoked in Ontario are contraband & untaxed. A "legal" carton of 200 costs around $70-80 including tax. 200 contraband ciggies in a plastic baggie go for $22 -$27 retail. "Runners" have organized routes.

    A lot of these smokes are legally manufactured (no tax) on Native Reserves. There are now over 100 smoke-shops on the nearest Native Reserve to me. These smokes are not supposed to be sold off-the-Reserve, but they are. It's a billion-dollar business - fortunes continue to been made. Houses, fancy boats and vehicles have been bought outright, for cash. The hardest part is keeping the huge profits quiet.

    if it weren't for cheap contraband cigarettes, welfare and other low-income people would have to quit smoking. Police enforcement is poor, at best. They occasionally stop some low-income person on the highway with a trunkful of smokes for himself and his buddies. He gets slapped with a fine of maybe $600 and cries the blues because he's unemployed.

    The lost tax revenue is just another billion or two wasted by our Provincial Government. Sadly, a billion-dollar waste is no longer a biggie, in Ontario.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2014

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