No Way to Prevent It

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Rich Douglas, May 29, 2014.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  2. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    The real problem is that we need more guns to prevent this kind of thing. However, there are already 300 million of them floating around in this country and we're running out of room to put them all. In other words, we're out of options.

    What do we tell our children? Not to worry! It only happens to other people.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2014
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Banning guns in a country where they're already so widespread is telling law abiding people that in situations where they may be assaulted, raped, or killed that they're out of luck. It's irresponsible and immoral to disarm victims when perpetrators will by definition disregard such a ban. And I say that as someone who chooses not to own a gun.
     
  4. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I was piling on the satirical fun above, but allow me to give you a more serious response.

    Your post is responding to a strawmsn argument. None of the recently proposed gun control measures have anything to do with banning guns, disarming victims or persecuting hunters (this one isn't yours, but has come up a lot in the media) or anything drastic like that. So far, I've heard proposals on assault weapons ban, increased resources to handle mental health issues and an end to the gun show loophole.

    These sound like reasonable measures to me, and really don't smack of gun prohibition at all. I will agree with every critic ever that there is no way any of that will actually make a difference. Guns are too easy to gain access to, and the more "responsible" a gun owner is, the less likely you are to be able to use it in self defense. My dad, for example, was shot to death while being mere feet from the safe where he locked his pistol.

    Him being a gun owner didn't save him, and no kind of regulation would have effectively kept an already existing gun from being in the hands of the guy that killed him.

    In the case of mass shooters, we have a problem in the form of a cultural meme that began around the 1980s and went viral in the 90s and 2000s- thats the notion of "going out with a bang". For prople who plan on comitting suicide, they have no deterent from copying others before who took out their frustrations on whomever they could find.
     
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I realize Rich didn't suggest that here, and apologize for that it seems like I didn't. But people propose gun bans all the time. Whether they're currently politically feasible (at the federal level), or whether they'd be struck down judicially in the wake of Heller may be another matter, but things change, and leftist thinking seems to be on the ascendant, so I don't think it's off topic to express a strong position opposing them when the overall subject comes up, however satirically presented.

    I'm truly sorry to hear this. The primary reason I don't have one is that I live somewhere where it's extremely unlikely I would ever be in a position to need one, even assuming I would do everything right in some sort of emergency. Another reason is that I have kids in the house, and don't feel confident enough to secure them with absolute certainty, especially since my kids are very smart but also very curious and occasionally unwise.

    I'm sure that's a big reason. Our society needs a great deal of cultural change when it comes to having compassion for others. I've also heard that all of the mass shootings during that time have been perpetrated by people on SSRIs, but I don't know whether there's any actual science there, or whether that's one of those things like climate change where what people believe is more often a matter of ideology than research. (And even if it's true, correlation famously isn't causation.)
     
  6. perrymk

    perrymk Member

    I've heard this term before but am not sure what it means. I've been to several local gun shows and every table was a licensed gun dealer following the letter of the law as I understood it (waiting periods, background checks, ID checks, etc.). One pays for the background check in advance of a purchase and I even saw one person a little perturbed that he didn't pass the background check (he was out the fee of the background check). There were several deputies present keeping the peace. The only real advantage of a gun show was the ability to compare guns and prices from several dealers in a few minutes, as long as it takes to walk from one table to another. This isn't quick as the place is always packed. One could also find other gun related items such as magnets to conceal a gun under a desk, targets, gun safes, etc.

    Is there something else going on that I need to be aware of?
     
  7. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Actually, It's 11 other countries and then the U.S.

    List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I get that people are scared of the inanimate object. I really do. But...people like me don't commit crimes. I've owned guns for years, and teach my children how to responsibly use guns. It's an enjoyable outdoor activity for my family, not a practice on how to kill innocent people.

    This latest dude was as crazy as a parade. No amount of gun legislation, that only affects law abiding people like me, can prevent crazy from...well being crazy. He stabbed three people, which is a much more up close and personal way of killing. You see the people close, look them in the eye, see the horror, feel the knife pierce flesh, you can smell the other person and he did that to three people in his apartment. Anytime someone is murdered it's a tragedy. But making me a criminal will not have any affect on bad people who intend to do harm on others, they'll getcha no matter what.

    This whole thing, like everything else in this country, is political. It's not the fear of the inanimate object, its the hatred of some "other" people. You hate the kind of people, in your mind, that own guns. You hate that Republican and Conservatives are so pro 2nd Amendment. I'm willing to bet that there are Conservatives out there that are just as scared of guns as you are, but since being pro RKBA makes Liberals and some Democrats mad, those Conservatives take a pro-gun stance. For poltitical reasons. I hate this "other" group so much that I dislike anything that they are for. Without rational thought or education, it's just get emotional and hate the "other" group. Just like how Conservatives are against Gay marriage. Not because God tells them to, or they think Gay people are disgusting, but because the "other" people they hate (you) support it.

    There is no debate. Just emotional pleas to authority from both sides who wouldn't know a real conversation if it slapped them in the face.
     
  8. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Many states (most) do not require sales between private individuals to include a background check. Locally (I'm in Florida), you will usually see lines of folks (private individuals) lined up with guns for sale. If you as a private individual wished to purchase from one of these sellers there is no mechanism for your background to be checked. This would be treated the same way if say you met the seller online and had a rendezvous to trade cash/weapon. But since gun shows allowing this practice is widespread, the issue has become the "gun show loophole". Gun Show Background Checks State Laws
     
  9. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    True of so many things in today's world.
     
  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Maybe for some of this, but I think when it comes to the mental health issue, that is an area where a conversation is happening. I would think that both sides would agree, for example, that in the case of Blaec Lammers it made no sense to incarcerate him rather than treat his situation as an issue of mental illness.
     
  11. perrymk

    perrymk Member

    I'm in Florida also. I can't say this doesn't happen, but I guess I'm going to the wrong gun shows because I just haven't seen this. There are usually only one or two tables that look like they could be private sellers and their offerings aren't anything one would want to buy.
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The bigger picture: we're the only large, modern nation in the world with anything like this. It's not even close.

    Step away from the 2nd Amendment argument for a moment. Can we agree that the number of these homicides is horrific?
     
  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes, Rich, it is horrific. No doubt whatsoever. I wish I could suggest a quick, effective solution for you. Unfortunately, I can't.

    This is not necessarily something to be proud of, but I think we're more docile and less freedom-loving here in Canada. It may be doing us some good. Our murder rate per 100,000 in large cities is generally one-tenth or less than the comparable US rate. You can buy a handgun gun here, but its use is pretty strictly controlled. You can't just shoot a burglar etc. and get away with it, unless, perhaps, he has a gun in his hand and has already drawn a bead on you. If not, your sentence could be longer than his, assuming he survives to serve one. And no concealed-carry stuff either. You can take your handgun with you in a locked box, by the shortest route to the gun club. Don't even stop on the way for a pack of gum.

    The murder rate here would probably be less, but illegal guns flow north to our criminals via places like Detroit-Windsor. Sometimes police and border authorities get lucky and seize a shipment. Many times, they don't. It's a profitable business. A smuggled handgun that sold for $200+ in the U.S. can sell for $2,000 to a Canadian criminal.

    A while ago, our Government tried to institute a Long Gun Registry - for every hunting rifle etc. in the country.. It was finally scrapped, after a huge expense. It took a while for our Fathers in Ottawa to realize that hunting guns, etc. are not the problem. You still have to jump through a hoop or two to buy one, but I don't think that's unreasonable. I know a couple of people who have 50 or 60 of them and those people certainly don't scare me.

    I've read at least two off-topic discussions in U.S. degree fora about where and how people with permits carry their guns around. A lady will reply something like "Oh, I have a nice little Ruger I carry in the pocket of my pink sweater, etc." Do you know how weird that sounds to Canadians?

    As I said, I don't have a solution for you - and I'm sorry I don't. Americans will never tolerate any infringement or abridgement of the hard-won freedoms they hold sacred. We're comparative sheep here, but in this case - I'm glad of it.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2014
  14. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Yes, the number of homicides is very horrific. So is the number of crimes committed in this country by the different races. Why are you not crying for a ban on certain races of people?

    Are you just talking Gun homicides? Or all homicides?

    Are deaths from DUI/DWI horrific too?
     
  15. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    The anti's tend to think they can legislate this away. "If only there were background checks and limits to the number of rounds in a magazine we could save people". Don't let a little fact like this happened in California get in the way. California, a state with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Unless we are talking outright ban and your gonna send cops out to collect the weapons from the non compliant all this other talk is just that...hollow talk.

    Convince me the other guy, the bad guy, is genuinely disarmed and I will lay mine down. All this hand wringing and political pandering trying to find some illusive gun law that will magically reduce crime is crap. The genie is very much out of the bottle. Restricting the means won't change the hearts of these perpetrators Deltona massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  16. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You really have no idea how bad this makes you sound, do you?
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Slight disagreement: they give up their rights all the time, especially under the 1st and 4th Amendment.

    Slight disagreement: the Pareto Rule applies here. A small minority hold a big majority of the guns. Most Americans want to see restrictions on this. But they don't get what they want, I guess.
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Every other modern nation is able to handle this but us. We're the worst of our peers by a huge amount. It isn't even close. It can be done. Maybe it won't be, but it can be done.
     
  20. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Only if you assume I'm talking about minorities, but what does that say about you?

    PS I don't want to ban anything or anybody.
     

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