What is a terminal degree?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by me again, Aug 31, 2007.

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  1. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Exactly what is a terminal degree?
    • Choose the best answer:
      a) MD
      b) JD
      c) PhD
      d) DBA
      e) EdD
      f) all of the above
    What does "terminal" mean? I've seen some people describe an MD as a terminal degree, while others describe a PhD as a terminal degree. Does anyone know for sure?
     
  2. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    IMO, they all are except the J.D. because there are the options of the LL.M. and J.S.D. after that.
     
  3. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    It's just "topping out" of your field.

    I have no idea about the specific choices you mentioned- but as an example, my AOS culinary arts was a terminal degree until 2004 when the Culinary Institute of America added the first Bachelor of Professional Studies- Culinary Arts in the United States.
    Now the BPS is the terminal degree in my field. (even though it is still only offered by one college, no one really knows about it, so far less than 400 have graduated, industry could care less, and it still doesn't lead to certification)
    So, an unusual HR person "might" be looking for the BPS, but I have run into teaching advertisements for culinary arts that request a masters in culinary arts with no mention of certification. (makes you wonder what else they are confused about)
    Clearly, in an arts and sciences field the terminal degree would be at the doctorate level.
     
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Interestingly, however, universities get away with counting JD holders as holders of a terminal degree for things like accreditation purposes.

    Most consider an MFA a terminal degree as well, since there's not much tradition of a DFA.

    -=Steve=-
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Oh, I thought it meant that it was the degree that killed you. :D
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Lawyers wanting it both ways.....imagine that! :D

    I've actually seen many faculty positions requiring a terminal degree that specifically state "a J.D. is not appropriate for this position".
     
  7. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    It means your degree is very sick and it's going to die soon!
     
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    On that note, there are many medical schools out there offering MS and PhD degrees, so, by that logic, the MD would be no more terminal than the JD.
     
  9. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    meagain: Exactly what is a terminal degree?

    The ones sold on the pushcart outside the Central Railway Station in Beijing?

    But seriously: Clearly not a clear thing. I once surveyed the registrars of 50 major US universities, on behalf of the Edinburgh Business School MBA, asking them if they would accept that degree for admission to their doctoral programs. About 30 said yes, and about 15 said no, because they regard any MBA as a terminal degree and don't accept terminal degrees for that purpose; they suggested, for instance, a MA or MS in Economics, which is not a terminal degree. And a handful said they judge each case on its own merits.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2007
  10. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Excellent points. I remember someone once saying that an MBA and a MS were terminal degrees because they don't prepare students for doctoral research, whereas a MA does reportedly prepare one for doctoral research (that was the opinion of a professor from one particular school). In the old days, maybe that was the standard (?), but clearly there is no standard today; or maybe a pop-standard is being developed via popular academic opinion?
     
  11. foobar

    foobar Member

    So the mba would not be an appropriate precursor for a DBA?
     
  12. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    As it was explained to me by a professor...

    The MBA lacks a lot of research classes. The MBA purportedly doesn't teach students how to do traditional academic research from a qualitative and quantitative perspective. He said that the MBA and MS were designed for students who don't want to pursue a doctorate; and that's why they lack the research-based courses. An MA reportedly has research-based courses in it to help prepare the students for future doctoral based research. Do these distinctions still hold true in the 21st Century? I don't know.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2007
  13. foobar

    foobar Member

    If the desired Masters is in economics, where do they learn the nuts and bolts of their disciplines (marketing, management, finance, etc.)?

    In the US, most doctoral students in business have MBAs (or MS Accounting, MS Finance) or are required to take MBA (MS) courses to get a foundation in their discipline before taking true doctoral-level courses.

    The typical business PhD program doesn't have mandatory courses in management, accounting, etc. - the required courses all relate to research - management research, accounting research, etc. and whatever background courses (economics, psychology, etc.) and tool courses (statistics, quantitative analysis) deemed necessary.
     
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I'm not aware of any school that offers a M.S. or Ph.D. in the field of medicine, although that certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.
     
  15. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member


    Here is one
    http://www.medicine.arizona.edu/mdphd/
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I can think of at least three definitions for 'terminal degree':

    1. A degree that isn't intended to be preparation for a subsequent degree. I've seen part time MA programs at prestige universities described as 'terminal masters programs' , because their graduates aren't typically admitted to the doctoral programs. UCSB has a terminal masters degree in religious studies as I recall, intended for people like journalists who need a broad background in religions and religious issues, but who aren't planning to become high-powered research scholars.

    2. A degree that is suitable academic preparation for practicing a profession at its highest levels. By that definition, a J.D. would be a terminal degree in law, since the J.D. degree is a suitable qualification for law school professors and supreme court justices. M.D.s are terminal degrees in medicine, though perhaps less so in the biomedical sciences like physiology or immunology where a Ph.D. might be more appropriate. This would be true even if there are "higher" degrees available, provided that those degrees aren't necessary or expected from top-level scholars and practitioners.

    3. The most advanced degree available in a subject, even if only a tiny handful of top-level practitioners ever earn one.

    My impression is that when universities specify a "terminal degree" in faculty advertisements, they are usually using definition 2.
     
  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    This terminal degree term is very subjective and might change according to Universities and countries. An MBA was considered terminal but yet you have people taking DBAs or PhDs. MDs are considered terminal but have few of them taking PhDs or post doc certificates. M.Engs are considered terminal but yet you have Universities asking for PhDs to teach engineering.

    To be safe, a terminal degree should be at the doctoral level but you have exceptions. At some Universities, the DSc is awarded after a PhD and some professors have recommended me to go for a PhD although I have a DBA as they feel that the PhD is the terminal degree and not the DBA. For some fields as sciences, the PhD is not enough to get an academic appointment and the Post doc is becoming mandatory.
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes, and this is really frustrating as you have professors teaching MIS with a master's in history. Some of them don't even know how to write simple programs but are teaching how to manage IT for large corporations. You also have PhDs in business that don't know how to prepare a simple balance sheet or don't know basic finance. I just had an issue with a MIS professor that did not know the Porter's model but yet teaching strategy to students.

    Most PhD programs are very research based and put little emphasis in core business. You have some programs that ask for 12 credits of business courses for non business graduate but I don't know how 12 credits can make for a MBA program.

    Ideally, you would want people teaching MBAs to hold one on top of the PhD but this is not the case many of the times. I have seen many M.Eds teaching business courses and don't rate well but their PhD is giving them the job.
     
  19. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Both require a dissertation, so that's a very subjective statement. However, it does seem that the PhD has [semantically] developed into a premier degree, possibly because of the universal name recoginition. If I finish this DBA program, then you can rest assured that this is unequovically the last collegiate program that I will ever enroll in!!! :eek:
     

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