Countin' churches...

Today when I went out for my lunchtime break, I decided to take a short drive through the WV countryside around my college town. In about 10 miles time, I counted 10 churches (most of which I don't recognize - like "the Brethren" and "Church of God of Prophecy"), 1 "Waco style" religious compound, and 1 billboard inviting everyone in the community to attend a Baptist revival meeting at the local high school gym this weekend.

Religion, ignorance, and poverty are strong teammates here in WV. Wonder when the locals will realize that He isn't exactly listening to them?

 

Some of the interviews with the coal miners' families suggest a questioning of their faith -- in the direction of that argument that says: "if God is all-powerful, why does He kill all those innocent people -- and if He can't prevent it, why is He a god?"

Yes, Jimmy, I know it all derives from the original sin thing, which I suspect is hard to fathom when it's your child dying of a really painful cancer.

 

Carl,

Do you have a point, other than expressing your distain of West Virginians?

 

Not for nothing, but I have the impression that God is more in the business of saving souls, and less concerned about saving lives.

 

I would question their faith too....

People die unjustly every minute all over the world. Visit any childrens hospital and try to leave and not bawl your eyes out. Why wait until now when it happens to them or someone they love....

 

Perhaps God has his own tears. He knows what it's like to lose a Son.

 

Indeed. But, with all due respect, He didn't really lose one, did He? I mean Jesus was only dead (if at all) those three days, and then he came back and did some more miracles and then rose into Heaven to be back with his Father.

So, at worst, God was only without a Son for a very short time. Those poor WV mining families will live the rest of their lives without their fathers and husbands.... I'm not sure, therefore, that He does know what it is like, nor could He.

However, I do know what it is like to live amongst people who live for the fabled afterlife taught by their religions while suffering through this actual and real life in ignorance, poverty, and fear. It is sad, and disheartening to watch it happening in virtually a third-world country inside our own borders, surrounded on all sides by wealthy states and wealthy people who can only make jokes about missing teeth, chewing tobacco, and incest.

If there is a God, he is nowhere near WV.

Almost Heaven? That's the catchphrase here..... everything is "almost" good enough, like the mining safety standards, etc., etc..... But "almost" heaven could also mean "damn near hell".

 

Charles,
I believe the word is "disdain", and my point has been made.

In case it is not obvious, my disdain is for those religious charlatans who hold this population in fear, suffering, and ignorance rather than helping the poor hardworking people of this small state advance into the 21st century as part of a competitive global workforce.

When churches outnumber people, and contain at least one wack-job religious compound every 10 miles or so, the end results of such socialization are obvious - and it isn't helping WV one bit, nor those dead miners and their families.
Carl

 

A belief in a higher power appears to have been implanted into our brains probably for as long has we have walked the Earth.

It seems however, if one reads the history of religions, that ultimately the belief in a god was used as a means of power and to control the masses, which seems to have worked quite well for those who wanted to take the lead and needed a stick.

Let those who don't want to question their faith believe in being rewarded in the afterlife because it will most likely keep them meek and manageable, while the rest grab whatever they can with never a thought about the afterlife or any other human since they care only for themselves.

The very real pity is that there are millions of people on this planet who are too lazy to go out and do some serious reading and discussing and determine for themselves whether their faith or non-faith is sensible. There is no clear answer, and that is what is scary for most. They'd rather not know, and just keep a simple faith, or none at all. Both are decisions made on zero questioning and zero research. They just accept the easier path and prefer to let somebody else decide what they should believe in.

 

A little over a year and a half ago, on May 18th, 2004, I buried my second daughter Marcie Elaine. She died of a rare blood disease. I am thankful I am Catholic and that we were able to baptize her before she died. In our faith baptized infants go to heaven. Did I blame or doubt the existence of God? Not for an instant. If anything it only strengthens my faith. My faith at least gives me the hope that some day I will be reunited with my precious little angel. I will be able to love her like only a father can in the afterlife. I, if anything, am grateful to god for giving me the chance of experiencing the most perfect form of love twice, in this life and in the afterlife. Maybe I am being ignorant or a victim of wishful thinking. But at least my faith gives me hope in the face of the worse pain anyone can experience. What would I have had under the same circumstances without my faith? Nothing, just a broken heart.

Think about it…

 

Sorry to hear about all of that Miguel.....

I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but if you substituted the word "Hindu" for "Catholic" your point would be the same.... and just as unbelievable from a standpoint of objective reasoning.

 

I hope, whatever anybody's view on religion or irreligion, that we will all respect the candour and deep emotion of Miguel's post, and, out of respect for his daughter, refrain from any bantering or argumentative response to it.

I was also unaware that there had been a mining disaster just now in West Virginia. (I can study or I can watch the news, not both.) I am certain, given the participants in this thread, that no one here intended any disrespect to those who died. Of that I am quite certain. The timing of this thread, however, was unwittingly unfortunate.

Best wishes to all of you,
Janko the Mad Priest

 

It is my sincere belief that death was a relief for the Son of God. His suffering prior to his death was so extraordinary that I am sure Jesus was better off at the moment he died. When the Passion of the Christ came out I face the moral dilemma whether I should take my family or not. My oldest daughter Maria Alejandra was only seven, Marcie was just a baby. I already had seen the movie in Miami, so I was fully aware of the strong content of the film. I chose to take my whole family. Maria was able to stomach the film and understood it completely although it was subtitled from Aramaic, and not translated. When we walked out of the theater my words to Maria were “You just saw what Jesus endured because he loves you. And all he asks from you is that you love him back. So love him above everything else. Period.”

I don’t think you are being anymore disrespectful for stating your opinion about religion than I am by expressing mine about faith. And I agree there is no difference if I use the word Catholic or the word Hindu or Lutheran or Jewish or whatever from an objective or spiritual stand point. However, since I was using a very personal story to make a point, and I am Catholic, I can not use another religion to make my argument. I guess I could have used the word Christian. But I really wanted to get the baptism point across.

As always Reverend you prove your heartfelt and much esteemed friendship. May God shed his light upon you on all your quests to further his work. You are truly my Brother in Christ.

 

Sorta puts things in perspective, huh?

My condolences, Miguel.

 

Normally I wouldn't post in this forum, but I do read it. I saw the WV miners and their families; I saw some that cursed God. What I didn't see were the ones praying and supporting one another quietly out of the lights of the cameras...but I know they were there and they will call upon God for strength even as those next to them damn him. It seems this is the cycle of our world dating back to Jesus and before.

As for trying to wonder why some people die, why some live, why nasty child molesters live to 100 yet my innocent cousin died at 14 days old never having committed a wrong....I don't know. I could question it, but then how broad is my perspective?

I know there is a God because I am not much of a gambling man. I look around and the more I learn about our world the more I see an intelligent design and believe it takes more faith not to believe in God than to believe in God.

I believe in the Christian faith. I’m not a Jewish person, so I am not “chosen”. I am not a Muslim because I see what the Muslim faith has produced. I am not a Buddhist because I don’t see myself ever being “enlightened”. I am not an Atheist because I cannot accept the finality of this life and do not have the faith it would take to.

I believe in an ultimate justice, because there is none here. How do you deal justice on a mass murderer? Kill him as many times as he killed others? There is justice, but not here. I don’t believe the point of God’s pain at the death of Jesus was at his death, but at having to witness an injustice on the only pure thing on this earth.

I believe God hurts for us, more than we’ll ever understand.

I believe in a bigger plan. Nothing seems to happen by accident, I just don't pretend to understand why, but I notice that those much older than me who have been around a while have a certain peace regarding even traumatic change. I watch the reactions of the old.

I work with a veteran of Vietnam. He saw good men die, bad men live and it only served to strengthen his faith. He claimed to be a non-believer until almost being taken out by a sniper; his faith was reaffirmed after a jeep accident and then again after stepping into a punji pit.

I learn from the experiences of those before me. That's what school is isn't it? That's what history is about isn't it? What makes us better today and now? The fact that someone else can give us a little insight about what they learned yesterday and then. Which helps me to understand tomorrow and when.....so that I may one day look back myself and that which I believed is shown to be true and that I am not the smartest human being on earth, but that I learned from the volumes of experience others have gained.

 

The vast majority of Christian pastors serving in West Virginia parishes are not charlatans, nor do they hold the good people of that state in fear, suffering and ignorance. Do charlatans exist within Christian ministry? Indeed they do, just as they do in any and all disciplines! But they are the minority, certainly not the majority. To imply that churches, ministers or the Christian faith is somehow responsible for the socio-economic woes of this region is ludicrous.

There is probably a 7-Eleven, BP, Texaco or something similar every few miles as well. Perhaps the managers of these establishments are holding the region in socio-economic incarceration................

 

What do you think the Muslim faith has produced?

 

You are right on all counts. There is no intention to disrespect the dead in WV, or to denigrate anyone's viewpoints on religion (such as Miguel's personal story).

That being said, I also believe that when there is tragedy we should not run from it and hold moratoriums on discussion - but instead let our creative juices flow so that the emotional positions we sometimes hold can be shown the light of day.

I was particularly disturbed that we weren't allowed to talk about Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans - because it was "disrespectful to the dead". Far from it. An airing of opinion in times like these is what made our nation great. Shying away from political and cultural debate because it might "offend someone" is a symptom of the times, as we continue to slide into post-imperial decline at an ever increasing pace under our current and corrupt leadership in the White House.

 

Let's have some proof..

Easy comment to make but where is your proof?

 

I don't know if there is a God. I don't even know what the word 'God' means, to tell the truth.

There are recondite philosophical principles, there are big blustering Yahwehs, there's poor suffering Jesus, there's the transcendent object of mystical rapture and there's the quiet little voice in each of our hearts.

It gets even more confusing if you listen to the cacophony of what all the other religions are saying.

But whatever the ultimate answer is to that (an answer that I don't expect to ever learn in this lifetime), I think that a more earthly picture does emerge from history, psychology and sociology.

The mythical figures of religion, whatever religion it happens to be, personify whatever it is that human beings think is highest and best. Religion speaks to human needs and to the human condition. It speaks of good and evil and of ultimate justice. It replies to implacable fate and inevitable death. It tells us that history will ultimately have a good end and that there is something that transcends... all this. It makes the meaningless meaningful.

You sneer at poor people's religiosity, Carl. But do you have anything better to offer them?

Perhaps poor people are more religious because it's not as easy for them to anesthetize themselves down at the mall (or at the university), pursuing... whatever it is...that they hope will fill the void in their hearts and finally make everything complete and whole.