How did medical practioners get the title 'Dr'?

Hi all,

This is something that I have been trying to get to the bottom of for some time, but have had no luck. There is another thread on a related theme, but does not answer this so I was hoping some of the members here may know.

I read an article in 2002 (actually it was an opinion, with no reference) which suggested that at a general meeting of the British Medical Association in 1829, members passed a resolution for all to adopt the title 'doctor' in order to improve their social and financial standing.

I contacted to the BMA in order to try and find more info, and here is their response:

The Provincial Medical and Surgical Association was founded in 1832. This became the British Medical Association in 1856. So there can't have been a BMA resolution dating from 1829!

Mmmm. So, back to square one. Does anyone have any idea when and if there was a motion passed when all medical practioners decided to call themselves doctors?

Cheers,

George

 

George,

An excellent question, I wish I had an asnswer. One I often asked is, "What was the first use of the title 'Dr.'? Was it for the health profession or was it in the academic world?"

I've considered the use Dr. as a title much like Mr. or Ms., but with requisite academic 'stuff' behind it. In my world, Dr. is NOT a profession. However, there seems to be a strong bias against using the title in anything other than a health care nature (DDS, DVM, etc.) even by PhDs and other doctorates. I read an article at the Ontario Sun by a PhD that felt a letter to her was addressed incorrectly because the sender used the title Dr., a title she felt reserved only for MDs and other health care practitioners (excluding psychologists). One of the brothers on Car talk has a PhD, and in one show he mentioned the title Dr. should only be used in the health care context.

It is my understanding (and not backed up by any reliable facts or research) that the use of the title by healthcare practitioners in the really old days was to start raising the image of medical practitioners and to start bringing a sense of scientific method into the profession. In this respect, and with all the training MDs, DDSs, DVMs, etc. go through, they have every right to the title. However, it seems Dr. has become the name of the profession. I find it odd, though, we'll say "my doctor" when we mean physician, but we'll say "my dentist" or "the vet" when we mean the other people we call 'doctor' (in the US we call a dentist doctor, but I understand dentists in other countries are called "Mr.").

So, I wonder which came first, the health care use of the term or the academic use of the term?

Sorry for the long winded non-answer. I couldn't sleep.

 

Same

I've found some societies call them Professor rather than Doctor?
I differentiate the medical from academic by using Quack. A dentist is a dentist and a vet a vet. I'd figure the Brits, needing titles, started the Doctor thing. Although Brits have Mr. Doctors too and call them Doctor Doctors with additional training.

Any way you look at it, if they have completed the long, legit journey, they have earned the title. Docere is Latin = to teach. The academic and medical do both. I think the medical types want to hijack the term for themselves. A malignancy called an EGO may be the driving force.

 

Clay's Sig line:

.. ..-. -.-- --- ..- ..-. .. --. ..- .-. . - .... .. ... --- ..- - -.-- --- ..- .... .- ...- . - --- --- -- ..- -.-. ... .- .. -- . --- -. -.-- --- ..- .-. .... .- -. -.. ...



Translated:

IFYOUFIGURETHISOUTYOUHAVETOOMUCSAIMEONYOURHANDS

I just copied the text into a Morse Code translator found here:

http://morsecode.scphillips.com/translator.html

"Too much time" isn't a necessary criterion. I copied the text, assumed it was in Morse Code, searched the next for less than 2 minutes, found the site, cut-and-pasted the code, and read the results. This post took longer than that.

 

Informative

Thanks Rich,
You folks teach me something new daily. I had been working on my new sig., but now it's too easy. I'll dig up some obscure code. However, I think you will get it before I type it. Will add that site to my favorites.
Thanks Again,
Clay

 

Rich,

You have challenged my mind to learn something new today. Thank you for your usual, good information. Thank you

 

Project

Rich,
How did you do with your project, or are you still busy?
Clay

 

It was supposed to say "time"

Given all my misspellings, I'm glad that's what it said. I should have checked, but my eyes refused. Various body parts rebel and have their own agenda. Mine work on embarrassing me, but waste their time.

 

In Canada (at least in BC), we often refer to dentists as Dr. So-and-So without batting an eye (but certainly batting a wallet).

(Addendum -- in my experience -- dentists are more effective than many physicians. You go in -- you pay -- (and you pay!) -- and the problem is fixed often same day. Wish it were so of physicians.)

 

Simple Minds

Everyone says it, everyone (except this challenged jerk) can do it.
Therefore, in keeping with my standards of embarrassment and "being out to lunch", Tah-Dah!, how do you cut and paste?My dumber than usual question for the day.

You can throw anything at me, not this poor (embarrassed by association) machine. I'm sure any child can do it, but there are no children around to instruct the old guy.

QTJ-Back in the day, dentists didn't have mortgage loan companies in their offices either. I may as well head for the La Brea pits.

My second dumbest question: Why would a married guy spend a grand on a little box to scream directions at him? Perhaps it's the stereo effect?

And last for today: How many folks cannot roll-up a hose or a vacuum wire? Must be millions, cause 30-60 min. are spent on these specific, potentially tragic activities, several times a day, on my (I have to pay for this?) TV? My luck, I'd choke plugging in the vacuum or be constricted to death by my hose. I'm sure special insurance is required.

The Priority Police do not have enough priority to prioritize priorities. Never ignore your PP's.

Just point, don't speak, I'll find the pits.

Addendum: I went to the doctor (mine was spending my money in a foreign country) and was told my remaining kidney was functioning fine "Steve". Who is Steve? What happened to the other? And why do I need a check-up when I'm fine, but must wait days when sick? Answer: They are checking well folks to prevent sick folks from getting well. I didn't say a thing. And Steve is getting the bill. My Quack had cancelled my appointment with my cell phone, which neglected to notify me from my trunk. My health care professional's image is dark and round. It is not a handball.

 

Its Kinda funny you ask this. I had a client the otherday with an MD degree from some other country that couldn't understand why there Dr (MD) degree wasn't equivelant to a Doctorate degree. I had to explain that a Dr. (MD) degree in the states is a Bachelors degree. She then asked your questions and I was stumped....

 

I believe I read in my own book that a very early use of "Doctor" was in the Douay version of the Bible, where Moses instructs people to gather the doctors of the tribe -- clearly, from context, meaning 'wise men' (or,dare we hope, wise people) -- which suggests the academic use came before the medical.

 

I can only give a layman's impression.

Originally, before the advent of universities, 'doctor' simply meant teacher, as did 'magister' and 'dominus'. It was an informal thing and anybody who gathered a group of students around himself was a doctor.

Then when groups of doctors started banding together in a 'collegium', more formal criteria started to appear governing who would be allowed to join them as a teacher.

Gradually teaching came to require qualifications which evolved into formal degrees that people earned by completing advanced educational programs under the guidance of the doctors that would eventually be recognizing them as peers.

Finally degrees became portable, recognized at universities far from the schools that originally granted them.

Medical doctorates were being granted in the 13'th century, if not before that. One of the first universities in Europe, that of Salerno in southern Italy, was always a medical school. But these medieval medical doctors were the teachers, the people who specialized in the humoral medical theories of Galen. They weren't the type to get their hands dirty when all that they needed to know could be gleaned from the ancient authorities.

Alongside them there were the emphatically dirty-handed medical tradesmen, rough and ready blue-coller surgeons. These people were sometimes barbers as well, and in between giving haircuts and shaves they set bones and sutured cuts.

I guess that the barber surgeons treated the lower social strata, followed armies on campaign and stuff like that. But when a king or a nobleman fell ill, I expect that these worthies wanted the very "best" and called in a doctor of medicine from the university. (That might not have been the best idea if the doctor decided to bleed them or something.)

So my impression is that medical doctors have been there from the beginning, and the real questions are how these humoral physicians who taught in the universities gradually adopted a more empirical hands-on style of medicine and how their practices gradually merged with that of the barber surgeons. The renaissance anatomists were probably part of that evolution.

If eventually the two styles of medicine were no longer all that different, and if the teacher-doctors remained far more prestigious than their competitiors and ever more in demand, then it isn't hard to see how they might have squeezed out the blue-collar practitioners.

I'd suggest hitting the library and consulting some texts on the history of medicine, particularly some of the more sociologically oriented contributions. The gradual standardization around the medical doctor is probably one of the aspects of the growing institutionalization and professionalization of medicine.

Here's an earlier thread on the history of doctors in general:

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20646

 

WD9DDV

Only a Tech license. I could never get beyond 7wpm

 

Thanks for all the input guys, and the morse code as well - reminds me of Panic Room.

Cheers,

George

 

7 WPM

WD9DDV DE AA7NP R RU AWARE THAT XTRA IS NOW A 5WPM TEST? K

Clay SHOULD have cast his message in American Morse...that would have stumped ALL of us, I bet!

 

Re: Re: How did medical practioners get the title 'Dr'?

Which country?

There are some countries where the first degree for (medical) doctors is a Bachelors degree (MBBS or variations thereof). The MD is then considered as a higher degree and needs extensive research and publications.

A similar question would be, if you were in France, would you consider the American Bachelor's degree to merely be the equivalent of a high school diploma (same name and all that...)

(Besides, doesn't the ABA consider the JD to be equivalent to a PhD?)

 

Re: Re: How did medical practioners get the title 'Dr'?

I have to say that I consider M.D.s to be doctorates. I think that's justifiable historically. Medical doctorates have been in existence since medieval times. And it's justifiable functionally. Medical doctorates are teaching qualifications in medicine.

While it's true that M.D. degrees don't require research dissertations, the dissertation is a fairly new thing in the world of doctorates. It only appeared in the 1800's in Germany. So I don't think that I'm comfortable with making dissertations the defining characteristic of what a doctorate is or should be.

 

Nosborne

Shhhhhhhhh. I'll make one you'll understand, but most others won't. It will require a little noodle work.

I know some doctors that sound like they fell off a turnip cart, but are considered the tops in their specialty. Some schools offer the MD/PhD, for research, at the same time. Pretty heavy duty.

I believe U of M was allowing science based PhD's to take a two year clinical and get the MD. I don't know if they still have the program. It does make sense.

Clay

 

Come now....

Come now, have you never had, or had a child who has had, braces?

A bit of trivia. Prior to getting dental insurance, I received a "cash, one price for everything" quote for braces for my daughter . Shortly after, I started a new job with insurance. At the end of the litle over 2 year orthodontic treatment, I added up my co-pays and realized I had only paid a few hundred less than the cash price. The headaches I had dealing with the insurance company were so bad it might have been better to just pony up the dough. So much for insurance.....