High Speed Access From AC Outlet

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Laser100, Sep 29, 2005.

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  1. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The technology for creating a LAN using your household electrical wiring has been around and in use for years. I think the change here is the addition of a chip that will allow non-computer devices (like a refrigerator) to network. Also, I suspect the speeds now are much higher. Finally, they may have--and the article doesn't discuss this--made advances regarding the inherent noise associated with household current--which isn't optimized for carrying data.

    DSL? No. Networking. DSL is the delivery of the internet over copper phone wires.
     
  3. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    170 Megabit Per Second

    I'm not a computer technology major. What is the speed of DSL?

    The article reports the following.

    "Matsushita's system is unique in that it delivers fast-speed broadband information at up to 170 megabits per second, which is faster than Ethernet."
     
  4. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Interior wiring doesn't include all of those shielded transformers in the power transmission train. Don't know how they are dealing with that.
     
  5. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    DSL

    Definition of DSL

    "The generic term that refers to the technology of xDSL, including ADSL,SDSL, G-Lite DSL and HDSL. This technology transmits information over the copper wires that make up the local loop of the public switched telephone network."

    http://www.nappartner.com/business_resources/glossary/index.html
     
  6. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: 170 Megabit Per Second

    At its best, on a good day, DSL is a helluva lot slower than 170 Mbps... less than 1/100th that, actually. But Rich is right that it wouldn't be considered "DSL" but, rather, just another form of networking... more accurately for our puposes here, "broadband" networking. DSL, a cable modem, a T-1 (even if only a fractional one), etc., are all all forms of broadband connectivity. But that's just a comment on the speed, alone. We really can't consider this new product part of "broadband" technology because it's strictly a LAN technology, whereas "broadband" refers to WAN technology.

    That's faster than traditional 10/100 Ethernet; but not, by a long shot, faster than Gigabit Ethernet... which has been around for a while, now. Rich is correct that AC carrier-based networking is nothing new. What's remarkable, if anything, is the speed. At 170 Mbps, it finally outperforms classic, standard, 10/00 Ethernet (but only by 70 Mbps), which AC carrier-based networking could never do before. In the past, AC carrier-based technologies were lucky to approach the speed of old ArcNET (2 Mbps).

    It's worthy of note, also, that this "new" technology is strictly for local networking... clearly intended for use in the home. DSL is a wide-area networking technology... a means of connecting to the Internet. Even if one uses this new Matsushita technology, it would simply be the means by which all the computers in the house would be interconnected and, moreover, would connect to the router or gateway which, in turn, would be connected to the DSL circuit... and that DSL circuit would be the connection to the Internet. DSL wouldn't have a thing to do with local interconnectivity within the home.

    So concerns about transformers and all that other stuff outside the home would be moot. And it is precisely those concerns that make this technology inappropriate for commercial use. Commercial locations tend to start out with three-phase on the customer side of the demarc, a portion of which is then stepped-down and transformed for use at the wall outlet. An AC carrier-based technology would never survive -- at least not well enough to be reliable -- that kind of environment.

    This new technology is for the home. It's got nothing to do with Internet connectivity or DSL (or cable modem or T-1 or anything that's both broadband and wide-area). It's a local area networking (LAN) technology that's aimed at replacing either the cabling of a home with Category-5 Ethernet cable, or using any of the newer wireless LAN products.

    To be candid, I'm struck by what I consider to be the strawman marketing claim in the very first paragraph of the story: "...doing away with all the Ethernet cables or the hassle of hooking up to a wireless network device." Precisely what "hassle of hooking up to a wireless network device" are they talking about? It's difficult to imagine anything easier. The only problem is that wireless devices can't achieve the high-end of Ethernet speeds...

    ...which brings me back to my earlier point: If there is anything remarkable about this "new" technology, it's its speed.
     
  7. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Verizon (and others) offer DSL speeds of 7.1 Mbps. Verizon also offers fiber to the home (15Mbps) if you are fortunate enough to live in a delivery area.

    Broadband is generally considered higher than 2 Mbps which exceeds T1.

    Cable data access is not DSL.

    DSL is the capability to provide simultaneous data/dialtone over common premise lines and is not limited to internet access.

    Gregg, what speed do you want via wireless?
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I have fiber optic coming into my house via cable. I get 3 Mbps download (wired Ethernet) and 1.5 Mbps (wireless). Those aren't "brochure" speeds, but actually observed speeds.

    For comparison, 3Mbps is about 3,000 Kbps, or about 60 times faster than a typical 50Kbps dial-up connection. I cannot imagine using dial-up anymore.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2005
  9. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Rich,

    That's pretty good for a shared service (depending on how you're actually measuring, packet analyzer etc...). Mine is running about 1.7Mbps down and 400k upload measured using the site below. Since I'm on the east coast I usually use the west coast servers. Not an empirical methodology but makes me feel better nonetheless.

    my "brochure" speed is only 4Mbps so I'm content for now. Upgrades to 8Mbps coming this summer.

    http://www.dslreports.com/stest.

    couple of others:

    http://bandwidthplace.com/speedtest/

    http://www.2wire.com/?p=154&inc=bm500&9525

    Ditto on the slow speed stuff.

    Kevin
     
  10. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    And you're suggesting that that's ubiquitous... or anything even remotely close to that? The vast majority of the planet -- or even just the U.S., if that's what you'd like to confine it to -- still accesses the Internet from home via dial-up modem. High-speed connections -- broadband -- are still unavailable to huge parts of the country. DSL speeds much greater than 1.5 Mbps remain unusual. That considerably higher speeds are available -- or soon will be -- in certain places does not make it the norm... at least not ye.t anyway.

    You can't change a word's definition just because technology is so far exceeding what it once described. Broadband was, and remains, a general term used to describe faster-than-modem speeds... generally any speed capable of supporting something like full-motion video, for example. There is no 2 Mbps demarcation point. In fact, when the term "broadband" was first coined, it was considered to be anything faster than 20 KHz. Broadband means exactly what it sounds like: A connection with a broad or wide bandwidth. As applied to Internet connectivity, it has always meant pretty much anything ISDN speeds or faster. I've been at this a while. I don't let relative newbies who think only the latest and greatest matters change history.

    No one said it was. Cable modem access, DSL, fractional and full T1... they're all broadband. That's what I said. I know the difference between a cable modem connection and a DSL connection, for godsake.

    Does your ego require this? Of course DSL can be used for point-to-point or dedicated connectivity... and a whole lot of other things. But when most people think of DSL, they think of home Internet connectivity. I was just trying to keep it simple. But if you'd like to engage in a pissing contest with someone who's been doing this for three decades, fine. Give it your best shot. So far you're not doing too well.

    I know what's possible and becoming available. I'm just trying to live the the real world for the moment.

    If my tone irritates you, understand that your nitpicking, trying-to-shoot-holes-in-what-I-wrote post was irritating, too.

    You're in Washington, DC, are you not... where government employees need high speed even at home? Try asking a cable modem user in Mooseballs, Montana how fast his download speeds are... or if his cable company even offers cable modems. The only thing he can be assured of is that if he drove 50 miles to the nearest CompUSA, he could get a 1.5 Mbps wireless gateway for his home LAN, too. Of course, alot of good it'll do him with only a 56Kbps dialup Internet connection... but, hey, at least he'll be able to claim at least part of what you're able.

    People tend not to be able to see beyond their own fences... or metro areas, perhaps. Only small parts of America enjoy the kinds of speeds you guys are talking about. Of course that's changing. Of course there will come a day when everyone's connected at lightning speeds. Internet-II is not far off. Google made a big announcement about it just yesterday. And the infrastructure to support it will, one day, be ubiquitous.

    But this thread started-out talking about an AC carrier-based technology for home LANs that happens to have broken the speed barrier and can now operate in excess of 10/100 Ethernet speed instead of the old ArcNET-like speeds (or less) with which AC carrier-based tecynologies have previously operated.

    That's all.

    How we've launched into all these other peripheral areas is a mystery to me. I only talked about them at all because there seemed to be some confusion about whether the new technology was an Internet connectivity product, or merely an intra-home LAN connectivity product... but with a new twist: Higher speed.

    And that's all it is. That's all this thread started-out being about. I was just trying to explain it in real-world terms, leaving out all the exceptions that would have turned it into a three-part post if I'd decided to discuss them... and then someone comes in here and tries to make me look stupid and out of touch. Pardon me if I let myself get irked by it.
     
  11. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I'm sorry, Fed, that I got so cranky in my above post. It's just that as I was reading yours, and noticing that, point-for-point it seemed to be aimed at somehow trumping what I was saying, I let it get to me. If I misread you, I apologize.
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No, Gregg, I'm not in DC. I'm 30 miles away in Northern Virginia.
     
  13. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Gregg,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_Internet_access

    "The International Telecommunication Union Standardization Sector (ITU-T) recommendation I.113 has defined broadband as a transmission capacity that is faster than primary rate ISDN, at 1.5 to 2 Mbit/s. The FCC definition of broadband is 200 kbit/s (0.2 Mbit/s) in one direction, and advanced broadband is at least 200 kbit/s in both directions. The OECD has defined broadband as 256 kbit/s in at least one direction and this bit rate is the most common baseline that is marketed as "broadband" around the world. There is no specific bitrate defined by the industry, however, and "broadband" can mean lower-bitrate transmission methods. Some Internet Service Providers (ISPs) use this to advantage, in marketing lower-bitrate connections as broadband."

    Not trumping, I answer from my world which I admit may be different than the normal reader. I'll stand corrected and allow the information above to be my clarifier.

    My post was for information only and certainly not meant to poke holes in anything you stated but merely to add to it.

    I find it interesting how a post consisting of 4 comments and 1 question can illicit the type of response you generated. I never said you didn't know the difference between a cable modem, etc...

    Not sure what pissing contest we are engaging in? As for not doing well, what are you talking about? How does my ego factor into an information additive? It seems to me Gregg that you went off without provocation, making assumptions not evidenced by my post or the language of the post.
     
  14. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I stand by everything I wrote...

    ...except, now, the apology.
     
  15. buckwheat3

    buckwheat3 Master of the Obvious

    Ahhhh Geeeeezzz again????
     
  16. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Where all the people who work in DC live, then, right? ;)
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No, Gregg, not even close. The vast majority of people who live in Northern Virginia also work in Northern Virginia. As for those who work in DC, they come from Northern Virginia, Maryland, and DC itself.

    This is tedious. Do you have a point?:rolleyes:
     
  18. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Is the smiley/winky thingy that I put next to what I wrote not appearing on your screen? Relax! It's no big deal.
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Gregg, you have no idea what my state of mind is at any given time, so don't tell me to "relax." You made some ridiculous assumptions about something you seem to know little about. Let's leave it at that, shall we? (Or did you have trouble seeing this emoticon: :rolleyes: ?)
     

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