An unmet need?

I realized today that there is NO CalBar accredited law school on San Diego.

Also, there is no UC system law school in San Diego. The nearest is UCLA and IT is all alone in the UC Law world.

There are three ABA accredited, terrifyingly expensive private law schools in San Diego (U.S.D., Thomas Jefferson, and Cal Western) but unless you want to spend $90,000-100,000 in tuition alone, the only resident law school around is the completely unaccredited Western Sierra Law School.

Seems to me that a reasonably well funded CalBar accredited (maybe R/A?) school offering a full time three year J.D. program could do very well.

What do you say, California lawyers and scholars?

 

Shhhhhh!

 

I, clearly, have no knowledge of this situation. Despite my lack of personal experience I am willing to guess that if the service does not exist then the need does not exist. There are no law schools. Does this mean there are no lawyers? I'm guessing that the answer is "no."
Jack

 

DesElms:

Thank You!

 

Jack,

I think the need is clearly there. The metropolitan San Diego area has a couple million people (more than all of New Mexico) and draws from south of Santa Ana and north of Mexico.

Actually, the need has already been documented! Thomas Jefferson was a CalBar school for, what, thirty years? before it went ABA in 1996.

The need for an additional UC system law school in Southern California is also fairly well understood but with UC finances in the shape they are in, it won't happen anytime soon. Also, even a UC J.D. has hit $60k total tuition.

Since there is no UC system public law school, an average law student in San Diego seeking to complete a three year full time day program (generally considered to be better both financially and academically though I have no proof of this) will pay a total of between $90-100,000 for tuition ALONE.

There is Western Sierra, of course, but since they are not a CalBar school, they can offer only a four year part time program and their students must pass the FYLEX.

I'd be interested in knowing whether Western Sierra itself is considering applying for CalBar accreditation.

Looking at other CalBar schools (and they number almost as many as ABA schools in California) a student can expect to pay about $18-25,000 total tuition. A few, like LaVern, are much more expensive. A few may be somewhat cheaper. Of course, many CalBar schools also offer only the four year part time program but even so, their students are exempt from the FYLEX and, judging by the State Bar statistics, their students stand a much better chance of passing the California Bar than graduates of unaccredited schools.

Finally, a large minority of CalBar schools are also R/A. Thus, their students are eligible for all the usual federal student financial aid programs. CalBar or ABA accreditation is a prerequisite to WASC accreditation for a California law school.

No, the need is there, I promise you, and the student who takes this route to licensure will have significantly fewer financial pressures after graduation that restrict the places he can work (i.e. in government or public interest or even small frim private practice).

 

Wait a minute! They have enough for a new UC Merced but not enough for a new UC law school in so Cal. Hmm.

 

Sure! There are four UC law schools. (The CSU system doesn't have law schools).

Brekeley and Hastings are both in the Bay Area, in Berkeley and San Francisco. UC Davis is right next to Sacramento. The sole remaining UC law school is UCLA in, of course, Las Angeles.

Now, where is the OVERWHELMING concentration of California's population? Hm?

But as I say, even if the UC system DID open a law school in San Diego, it would still cost about $60,000 in tuition alone to get a J.D. there. Instate, BTW.

 

UC law schools

There are four major metro areas in California, and the UC campuses can be broadly associated with these areas:

- San Francisco Bay area (UCB, UCSF, UC Hastings, UCSC)
- Sacramento area (UCD)
- Los Angeles/Orange County area (UCLA, UCR, UCI, UCSB)
- San Diego area (UCSD)

The Highway 99 corridor in the San Joaquin valley (centered around Fresno, extending towards Bakersfield and Merced) is arguably also approaching major metro status. This area just got its first UC campus (UC Merced).

There are currently four UC law schools: two in the SF Bay area (UC Hastings and UCB), one in the Sac area (UCD), one in the LA area (UCLA). There are none in the SD or 99 areas.

Two of the UC schools in the greater LA area (UCI and UCR) have seriously considered adding law schools, but no action appears to be imminent. UCR seems to be further along. In recent years, Orange County has acquired three private ABA-accredited law schools, which probably hurts UCI's chances.

I have heard that UCSB was at one time approved to open a second UC law school in southern California, but it didn't happen and the opportunity passed.

There have been rumors that UCSD wants to buy out California Western and turn it into a UC law school. Cal Western currently offers joint degree programs with both of the state universities in San Diego: they have a JD/PhD program with UCSD, and a JD/MBA program with San Diego State University (a CSU school).

 

Meanwhile, Cal Western remains hideously expensive...

 

As one who lives in San Diego amidst all the building boom I also thought it odd that there was no school of architecture until the early 1980's. Even then it had no form of accredidation for many years. It is nearly as expensive as law school. Another has opened as a part of Woodbury Univ. in last few years.

Dan

 

Nosborne - I'm going to argue with you a bit but I hope that you understand that for me it's more of an exercise, I have no stake in the issue.

Your point is that the need exists because the local students don't have a state law school available. My point is that the need does not exist because there are already enough lawyers. I think my point trumps yours because it would be the entire state that would have to pay for such a school. If there are already enough lawyers then why would they want to do this? To benefit the few people who want to go to law school but don't want to move to another city in order to achieve that goal? Higher taxes, etc, etc, to create more lawyers that are not clearly needed?

In any case, it's been nice arguing with you. Have a good weekend.
Jack

 

Your argument focusses on the not altogether accurate perception that there are too many lawyers and therefore society doesn't need an inexpensive law school in San Diego. You fail to take some things into account:

-There ARE a lot of new law grads out there, no doubt. But state and local governments are the largest employers of lawyers in California (and in every other state, too, I'd bet.) State and local government cannot afford to offer (at taxpayer expense) starting salaries that a new lawyer with $100,000 in student loans can afford to take. Thus, state and local government find it hard to fill thier positions. There MAY be too many law grads (actually, I doubt it but that's another argument) but there aren't nearly enough new law grads available who can work for the public or represent those most underrepresented; the poor and lower middle classes.

-Why should a San Diegan have to travel for his law degree? Going to law school in one's own home town can save enormous amounts of money in living and moving expenses not to mention reducing the disruption in his personal life.

-A CalBar school would not only be a source of local lawyers locally trained, but such schools often offer free or low cost legal services to the community (and thus clinical experience to its own students.) Doubtless the ABA schools are doing this now, but the need is very great.

-A CalBar school wouldn't depend on state funding. As a private institution, the school can direct itself according to the needs of the market.

And the last is, of course, the bottom line. I think that the reason San Diego needs a CalBar school is because there are enough potential law students in San Diego who don't want to indenture themselves to Sallie Mae for the rest of their lives!

 

OK, I think you got me.
Jack
(should have known better than to argue with a lawyer)

 

Re: UC law schools

This is what happened to Detroit College of Law and Michigan State University. My bet is that DCL (ahem, Michigan State) law school will now rise slowly in the rankings to at least second tier respectability. The same would most certainly happen if UCSD--a mighty fine and somewhat underrated school--were to swallow up Cal Western.

 

Swallow up?

"duh DUH. duhDUH. duhDUHduhDUHDUH"

Oh, wait, "Jaws" took place in the Gulf of Mexico, didn't it?

 

Re: Swallow up?

Way off. Jaws was in Martha's Vineyard (called Amity Island for the movie).

 

Incidentally, the mechanical shark in Jaws was called Bruce (for reasons that elude me). So that's two Bruces from Massachusetts. I'm not sure which one is the more friendly.

 

I LOVE IT!

 

An upward adjustment...

My earlier range for the total tuition at a non ABA, CalBar accredited school needs to be revised upward. With a couple of outliers (La Vern in particular) the schools seem to cluster around $30,000 total tuition.

HALF the resident tuition at any UC law school.

ONE THIRD the tuition of any private California ABA law school.

But climbing. Definitely climbing. Maybe they've been reading my posts?

 

The shark was named Bruce in honor of Spielberg's lawyer, Bruce Ramer. See http://www.eonline.com/On/Holly/Shows/Jaws/Quiz/sidebar.html?NF=1

So the story comes inevitably back to lawyers.