Navy will require Associates Degree for promotion to Senior Chief (E-8)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Charles, Aug 29, 2005.

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  1. Charles

    Charles New Member


    http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/9F40FF18-1951-470B-A8E8-DA3C4C3E1071/0/NAV05203.txt
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure this standard has much meaning. With all of the relevant, nontraditional ways to earn credit, I would suspect that an associate's degree would be well within the grasp of most chiefs with very little new effort, simply based upon the schooling they've received already.

    Is this another example of "diplomaism," requiring a credential when the work standards have not changed? Or is this in response to a real need for a more formally educated senior enlisted force? Window dressing? I'm not sure.

    When I was on active duty, it was understood that those enlisted personnel attempting to rise to the two highest grades were expected to have complete not just an associate's degree, but one from the Community College of the Air Force. (Thus mirroring the "rating-relevant" criterion the Navy is using. CCAF degrees are awarded only in areas related to one's Air Force Specialty.)

    But even though this standard was "understood," it was never, ever codified. And we saw exceptions. On the officer side, it was widely accepted that you needed a master's to make major. The vast majority of officers selected had master's degrees, but you saw exceptions (pilots mostly, but even then very few).

    Note that no compable (to CCAF) program has ever been developed for delivering bachelor's degrees to enlisted personnel. Oh, no. Then they'd want to become officers, and we couldn't have that! :rolleyes:

    (Been there, done that. Was a staff sergeant when commissioned as a 2Lt.)
     
  3. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    I read the exact same thing some 20 years ago!!! Nothing has changed!!! :eek:
     
  4. Michael Lloyd

    Michael Lloyd New Member

    My wife was in the Navy for twenty years, retiring as a chief petty officer in the corpsman rating. She finished her bachelor's while still in the Navy, and after she had already advanced to chief. After her retirement, she earned a MHA.

    In some of the more competitive ratings, she thinks that most CPO selectees already have an associates, and many of them have already have bachelor's. She does recall, however, several situations with fellow sailors in which their lack of formal education clearly counted against them come promotion time.
     
  5. Mustang

    Mustang New Member

    Navy will require Associates Degree for promtion to Senior Chief (E-8)

    Charles,

    As I have stated before, I retired from the Navy as a Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) in the Limited Duty Officer Program of Administration on 1 July 1995 after 26 years of active duty. Prior to my appointment as a commissioned officer, I advanced to Chief Personnelman (E-7). I did not completed a Bachelor's Degree until I was within about three years of retiring when I was already a LCDR. Since then, I have completed a Masters.

    When I was enlisted, in was rare to see an enlisted person with any college at all. Now, a significant number of senior enlisted have two or more years of college. I think that the Navy is forcing the Chiefs to get an Associate Degree before advancing to Senior Chief because I think they intend to make a Bachelors Degree a requirement for adancement to E-9. Liike Rich stated, most of the Chiefs should be able to get an Associates Degree with ease based on their experience, testing through CLEP and DANTES, and college either online or in class.

    Fred
     
  6. Ryan IV

    Ryan IV New Member

    Personally, I think this is a good idea. As a Marine Corps Master Sergeant (same paygrade as a Navy Senior Chief), I think education should be stressed more. We are already required (in the Corps) to complete certain levels of education at each rank, whether they be schools that relate to our job (MOS schools) or schools that are a part of improving our leadership ability.

    I cannot speak for the other services, but the Corps doesn't put the emphasis on college level education that it should. With the exception of a few senior level NCOs, the Marines aren't really encouraged to go to school. Many senior enlisted Marines continue to degrade the need for higher education outside of the Corps.

    The only thing that concerns me about this is the requirement for the degree to be related to their job. Currently, the only requirement to use tuition assistance is to have a degree plan/SOC agreement with an accredited school. There is no requirement for the degree to relate to your job in any way (I'm currently working on my Bachelor's in History, which has nothing to do with my job field). Will this change the way tutition assistance money is granted? Will servicemen only be allowed to get tuition assistance if their degree plan relates to their job field?

    Respectfully,
    Ryan IV
     
  7. airtorn

    airtorn Moderator

    I can give you the Air Force perspective (IMHO) on this. Although it is not a requirement, it is highly recommended that you have the appropriate Community College of the Air Force associates degree for promotion from Master Sergeant (E-7) to Senior Master Sergeant (E-8) and Chief Master Sergeant (E-9).

    To put this in perspective, here are the approximate statistics (as of Jul 05) for personnel at the respective pay grades with at least an associates degree.


    E-7 - 57% (15% have bachelors or above)
    E-8 - 93% (36% have bachelors or above)
    E-9 - 95% (47% have bachelors or above)

    As you can see, one is at a disadvantage by not getting a minimum of an associates degree when it comes time for promotion boards.
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Great post!

    Readers: Please note that enlisted personnel competing for promotion through the grade of Master Sergeant (E-7, same as a Navy CPO, an Army Sergeant First Class, or a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant) do so without their education levels being weighed. There is a point system (called WAPS, or Weighted Airman Promotion System) that weighs 6 categories (Time in Service, Time in Grade, Performance Reports, Decorations, and scores on two examinations). The only way education could become a factor is in the performance reports, but there is such little variation in them--almost everyone's perfect, don't you know--that education level has little impact. But.....

    Promotions to Senior Master Sergeant (E-8) and Chief Master Sergeant (E-9) are handled differently. In those two grades, the first four weighted factors are also present, along with one examination. But the records also meet a promotion board, which scores each record. Here, education level becomes an essential factor. People without at least an associate's degree are very much less likely to be selected for promotion. A common belief is that not only is the education level considered, but candidates are expected to have earned an associate's from the CCAF in particular. I happen to believe this, even though I don't believe in it. (I think it comes from the senior leadership's desire for its senior NCO's to support the CCAF--lead by example and all of that.)

    So, are there a bunch of Master Sergeants running around trying to get their associate's degrees completed before being considered for promotion? No, not really. There's some of that, sure. But the drop-off in numbers between Master Sergeants and Senior Master Sergeants is huge. It is a big leap to make the grade--only 2% of the enlisted force are at that grade. (And another 1% are Chief Master Sergeants.) It's a tough cut, and a lot of Master Sergeants either retire before they compete for promotion or they don't bother to make themselves competitive (educationally or otherwise).

    Whenever I talk to military personnel about transitioning from the military to civilian life, I emphasize the need for as much education as you can get. Very few employers care what your grade was when you got out--officer or enlisted, Staff Sergeant or Master Sergeant, whatever. I'm just a retired captain, but no one cares whether or not I stuck around and became a major. They care that I served, and they really care about what I did. But if you offered me a chance to trade in my Ph.D. for a promotion on the retired list from captain to colonel (including the commensurate raise in pay), I'd turn it down flat. No question.

    Lesson: enjoy your military career. Get as much experience as you can. Try to get promoted, but don't obsess about it. Get at least a bachelor's degree, even a master's before you go. Because it's a jungle out here, and there's no personnel system in the private sector that will rank you, rate you, and assign you. You're on your own. And a college degree may be what distinguishes you from not only your military brethren, but from the rest of the competing workforce as well. ;)
     
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In the Air Force when I did such things--and I don't know if it's changed--the requirement was that the degree had to relate either to your Air Force specialty(ies) or a career you intended to enter after leaving the military. Obviously, no one was ever turned down, so this standard was meaningless.
     
  10. Michael Lloyd

    Michael Lloyd New Member

    Rich, I cannot speak for the other services, but my wife (the retired CPO) tells me that in the Navy, making the jump from E-6 to E-7 does require being passed by the CPO selection board. And she is pretty darn sure that the CPO selectee board does look at education. She made CPO the third time around, at year 14 of her service. The previous two times, she passed the exams and the board, but there were not enough open E-7 slots in her rating for her to be promoted. The year that she did make it, there were only 85 CPO slots open in the corpsman rating, which at that time, had several thousand sailors. And she says that after E-7, there are fewer and fewer E-8 and E-9 slots open. A number of her colleagues in the Navy retired at 24 years of service as an E-7, since no E-8 slots were open for them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2005
  11. PatsFan

    PatsFan New Member

    I've often wondered if an Ensign's salary is much more than a Chief Petty Officer's?
     
  12. Michael Lloyd

    Michael Lloyd New Member

    The short answer is an ensign's pay is generally going to be lower than a CPO. This is largely due to the greater years of service that a CPO will have.

    http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/pay/bp/paytables/Jan2005_Basic_Pay.html is the link to the current US military active duty pay scale. You will note that a new ensign, with less than two years experience, earns $ 2344 per month. An E-7, which is the rate for a CPO in the Navy, with eight years of experience, is $ 2900 per month.

    It would be very unusual (he/she would have to be 'shit hot' in a fast-promoting rating (job), as my wife says) for someone to be promoted to E-7 at year eight. Year 12-14 is more common, although this is subject to great variability. An E-7 at year 12 earns $ 3100 per month whereas an ensign at year 12 earns $ 2950 per month. In reality, of course, that ensign by year 12 is probably a Lt. Commander or Commander, and as such, earns $ 5600 to 5800 per month.

    So a senior chief is no doubt earning more than a junior officer, but the officer soon catches up and starts execeeding the senior enlisted fairly quickly.

    Please note that these figures are predicated only on basic pay, and do not include all the various allowances, specialty pay such as flight pay or submarine duty or the many other pay adjustments available to both enlisted and commissioned personnel.
     
  13. PatsFan

    PatsFan New Member

    Very interesting. I'm glad to hear the chiefs get some appreciation.
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Were I come from after 5 years of service and rank of E5
    one signs additional 2 years and goes to a 2 months training education camp. Following by final examination and successfully scoring 70% or above one is awarded qualification of ASSET
    degree.

    As a graduate of Airforce technical school and certified Telecom Specialist I served and defended my country.


    Learner
     
  15. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    Some FY 04 demographics...
    Army education levels. Enlisted w/some college, AA degrees--6.8%
    w/BA, BS--4.6%, with advanced degree--0.5%
    Officers w/advanced degrees--40%
    Warrants w/some college, AA--58.3% w/BA, BS--26.3%, w/advanced degree--5.2%

    Navy ed levels. Enlisted w/some college, AA--3.8% w/BA, BS--2.6% w/advanced degree--0.2%
    Officer w/advanced degree--16.2%
    Warrants w/some college, AA--69.6% w/BA, BS--8.0% w/advanced degree--13.6%

    Marines. Enlisted w/some college, AA--2.5% w/BA, BS--1.1%, w/advanced degree--0.2%
    Officer w/advanced degree--17.6%
    warrants w/some college, AA--12.5% w/BA, BS--11.3% w/advanced degrees--3.0%

    Air Force. Enlisted w/some college, AA--14.2% w/BA, BS--4.3% w/advanced degrees--0.7%
    Officers w/advanced degrees--49.3%

    reference-- http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/demographics.asp

    The Army centralized boards (E7-E9) do look at education for promotions but there are no mandatory degree requirements. It is highly suggested that you have an AA degree to compete at the senior NCO levels. I also agree with Rich, you have to plan for and attain as much education as you can through your career as if it is a military mission, as once you retire you will need it to be competitive with civilians who also want the job and often have experience and education in the field you are looking at, especially us lowely ground pounders out there. Fortunately, I was able to complete my BS during my last duty assignment and it looks like I will complete my current MBA studies before I retire in a few years.

    SFC William Parker
     
  16. Michael Lloyd

    Michael Lloyd New Member

    That is really interesting data, particularly showing the marked difference in officers with advanced degrees between the services. I wonder why the major difference there between the Air Force/Army vs. the Navy/Marine Corps.

    I once knew a Sargeant First Class at Ft. Lewis who had a masters in international relations from Georgetown. He was in charge of one of the parachute packing/rigger shops at Ft. Lewis. He was quite happy where he was and adamantly resisted any attempts to commission him. The Tacoma newspaper once did a story about enlisted troops at Ft. Lewis and McChord with undergrad degrees and above, and I was surprised at how many there were. There were a few NCOs with PhDs. I wonder if these military personnel were ever offered a commission or if they were and declined to pursue it.
     
  17. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    The Navy data does appear rather low, and I am not sure why that would be the case. Under officers, there are 17.2% that have other/unknown listed for grad degrees. It is very likely that they do have an advanced degree.

    The Army pushes education, there are free courses under the SmartForce contract, and there is the e-army-u program where the soldier receives a lap top and internet conection, and a fairly large number of participating colleges to select from to pursue degrees. Then there is those like me who decided to pursue my education from universities not participating in e-army-u. These colleges may have satellite schools on post, local universities around the post, or you can take them online. I only need to be accepted, enrolled, and have a degree plan in order to have Army tuition assistance pay. I am not restricted to a degree field. Furthermore, I have two other options to pay for my education, my GI Bill used either as "Top Up", where I use TA then my GI Bill to cover any additional costs, or I can use my GI Bill alone to pay for courses. This has allowed me to pursue my education when and where I wanted. The Army will pay for your education, often in conjunction with the VA, if you decide to pursue it. The real problem is working around deployments and training exercises, especially in todays operational tempo. I already had two years of college when I decided to really pursue my education, and the Army has paid roughly $24,000 to date for my education, and will end up paying another $10,000 for me to complete my MBA. The Army actually has done a fairly good job making education available to soldiers, and is less restrictive in their tuition assistance policies than other services in my opinion.

    William
     
  18. Ryan IV

    Ryan IV New Member

    SFC Parker-
    The Corps' system of granting TA is currently very similar to the Army's way of doing it. All I'm required to have is a degree plan and a SOCMAR agreement and the Corps will pay 100% tuition up to $4500 a year. There are no requirements to get certain degrees or attend any specific school, as long as your school is part of the SOCMAR system.

    My major complaint with the way the Corps handles education is just the lack of pressure to do it. We don't have anything like E Army U. Very few senior enlisted Marines have degrees of any sort, much less advanced degrees. It just isn't a part of our mentality to push education. I try to be a one-man band when it comes to pushing education on the younger Marines, but it can be a real uphill battle. Many of them aren’t even aware of how to request TA or how to go about picking a school. The Marines I’ve pushed into going to school all enjoy it, but it’s getting them to dive in that’s the hard part!

    Does the army push education? Is it something the junior soldiers are encouraged to do? I understand that deployments are a killer, but when the soldiers are in garrison, are they given time/encouragement to go to school?

    Thanks,
    Ryan IV
     
  19. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    Yes and no Ryan. The Army makes access available, and "quietly" promotes it in some circumstances, and loudly in others. It is hard as a warfighter, as the Marines and other branches clearly are. As Bruce said, we have to push it. As the Platoon Sergeant I preach it, I want every Soldier, Marine, Sailor, and Airman to set themselves up for success. This not only includes "be, know, do", but also includes preparing oneself for success after military service. You give 110% to your Country, and in my opinion you deserve the opportunity to set yourself up for success after service. Just my two cents.

    SFC Parker
    Platoon Sergeant
    3rd Brigade, 25th ID (L)
    A CO 2/5 Inf (soon to re-flag as Recon Squadron, A Troop 3/4 Cavalry)
    3rd IBCT (Light)
     
  20. Ryan IV

    Ryan IV New Member

    SFC Parker-
    Well, I'm glad to see you and I are fighting the same battle. I guess we'll have to keep up the guerilla warfare and get our people off to school one at a time. :D

    I apologize to Bruce and all the other Soldiers on the board for my capitalization errors.

    S/F,
    Ryan IV
     

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