Update on Cal State doctorates

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by tmartca, Jun 13, 2005.

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  1. tmartca

    tmartca New Member

    I know this was mentioned a while back, but it seems there has been some developments of late.

    A bipartisan bill was approved last week by the State Senate to allow CSUs to offer an Ed.D as well as the Doctor of Audiology.

    The CSU spokesman states that the reason for this development is a lack of participation by the UC schools in the joint EdD program. Given that, they feel that they need to offer these programs to satisfy a social need for this degree.

    The UC is, again, pointing to the Master Plan for Higher Education as the reason to stop this.

    If the bill is sign by the governor, "Cal Poly Pomona, Los Angeles, Long Beach and Fullerton would be candidates for the doctoral education programs."

    LINK


    It's interesting that all the campuses identified were in the LA area. There are no comparable departments in NorCal??

    The only thing I was dissapointed in was no mention of a DBA. Although, there was no serious discussion of including that in the current bill it was just me hoping.
     
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    It would be nice if they offered a DL DA Humanities, perhaps with D'Hills serving as the lead school.
     
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I was on the faculty at Cal State San Bernardino for over 8 years and participated in the faculty surveys that were part of the earlier failed attempt. The UC's are ademantly against this proposal--and for good reason. If the CSUs are successful in this bid, the UCs will lost their exclusivity over all doctoral degrees--including the Ph.D.

    The track taken by CSU, has been done successfully elsewhere, including by new home state of Illlinois. The three University of Illinois Campuses constitute the UC equivalent. However, three other universities, Illinois State, Southern Illinois and Northern Illinois, have been offering doctorates for years. Of the the remaining five comprehensive masters colleges (equivalent to the CSUs), one has recently received approval to offer an Ed.D. and another is developing a proposal for one.

    Since the Ed.D. has already been established by long-standing precedent as a research degree--rather than a non-research practitioner's degree--there will be little to prevent the CSUs from offering other research doctorates, including the Ph.D.

    Pomona, Los Angeles, Long Beach and Fresno already have successful joint-doctoral programs in place (with UCs and others). I am surprised that the most established campus at offering doctorates, San Diego State, is not on the list. Perhaps they do not wish to tick off their UC joint-doctoral partners at this stage.

    Could Cal States offer competent Ph.D. programs? I believe that they could. There is a ton of research done by Cal State professors at Cal Poly San Louis Obispo, Cal Poly Pomona and many of the other campuses that mirror the types of things done at UC campuses. There will be a big fight for resources, to be sure--this turf war is far from over.

    Tony Piña, Ed.D.
    Administrator, Northeastern Illinois University
     
  4. Arch23

    Arch23 New Member

    Existing programs?

    Hmm... I thought there were already existing programs such as the joint education doctoral programs offered by UCI & Fullerton, UCI & Pomona, UCI & Los Angeles, and UCI & Long Beach, in addition to those already being offered by UCLA & Cal State LA (special ed) & UC & Fresno (ed leadership)?

    http://campusapps.fullerton.edu/news/university/2003/print/101_joint_doctorate.html

    http://www.calstatela.edu/academic/ccoe/creddegr/index.htm

    http://jdpel.csufresno.edu/

    I do know that there's a joint education doctoral program between San Diego State and Claremont Graduate University...

    http://edweb.sdsu.edu/doc/doctoral.htm
     
  5. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member

    Re: Existing programs?

    Yes, but notice the joint part. If passed, this would allow CSUs to offer doctorates without the blessing of the UC system.


    Tom Nixon
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Thanks for posting this, tmartca. I was wondering what had become of this proposal and it's good to see that it's still alive.

    Here's an earlier thread about it:

    http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18200

    The original proposal was for CSU to offer 'professional' and 'applied' doctorates, with law, medicine, dentistry and veterinary medicine specifically excluded. The CSU's would still be prohibited from offering Ph.D.s.

    I hope that this education and audiology stuff is just a reporter's impression and that D.B.A.s and Psy.D.s haven't been snipped out and left on the legislative committee room's floor.

    The last time that legislation was introduced to give CSU the right to offer Ed.D.s, UC had a conniption fit. UC tearfully pleaded with he legislature, promising to immediately create all kinds of new joint doctoral programs with CSU. But now, years later, most of the projects still only exist on paper and only a few dozen students are enrolled. 'True Lies' might be one way of putting it.

    Maybe I'll send a letter to the Governator's office saying that if he doesn't sign, 'I'll be back' at election time to 'terminate' him.

    Besides, CSU already educates more Kaleefornya public school teachers than all other colleges and universities combined. So who is better qualified to offer Ed.D.s? The ivory-tower post-modern education theorists at UC?

    I think that your source was a Southern California newspaper and it was apparently just listing some regional schools that might participate. I'm sure that SDSU, Cal Poly SLO, the Bay Area and the Valley schools would participate as well. (SF State already has joint doctoral programs with UCSF and Berkeley.)
     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    This thing is Senate Bill 724.

    Here's the scoop on its current status:

    http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=sb_724&sess=CUR&house=B&site=sen

    It passed the CA State Senate on May 31 by a rather surprising vote of 32 aye, 3 noes.

    It went to the State Assembly (the other house of the bicameral legislature) on the same day and was assigned to the Assembly's Committee on Higher Education on June 9, where it now is.

    (The fact that several Assembly members signed onto the Senate bill as coauthors suggests that it has Assembly support. It's also striking that both Democrats and Republican legislators seem to support it.)

    Here's the current text as amended:

    http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_0701-0750/sb_724_bill_20050405_amended_sen.html

    Predictably it's written entirely in gibberish (the legislators are all attorneys!), but to my mortal's eye it looks like it prohibits CSU from offering any Ph.D.'s and any doctorates in law, medicine, dentistry and veterinary medicine, but apparently allows things like DBA's and Psy.D.'s.

    I never knew that.

    UC must have helped draft the California master plan, judging from the fact that it includes language exempting UC from its provisions. The plan apparently only exists to restrict competition to UC from the CSU and from the Community Colleges.

    Simply amazing.

    In the following portion of the legislative counsel's summary of the bill, red text describes material amended out of the bill as originally introduced. Blue text describes what was amended in.

    (The Bill itself consists of the new paragraphs for the CA Education Code.)

     
  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Interesting. I think.

    The legislature considers professional doctorates to be the sole province of the UC system, along with Ph.D.s.

    But the CSU system CAN conspire with private institutions to offer non Ph.D.s and non professional doctorates...What's up with THAT, I wonder?
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that it's the existing sections of the CA Education Code (the Donohoe Higher Education Act) that makes both Ph.D.s and professional doctorates the province of UC.

    As I read it, the portion of the Legislative Counsel's digest that begins "Among other things, the Act provides..." is describing the current state of affairs.

    The section of the digest that begins "This bill would instead authorize..." describes the changes that this bill proposes to make.

    As originally written (the red text), the bill seemed to authorize CSU to offer any doctoral program that has a professional or clinical purpose, as opposed to training university faculty researchers or teachers.

    Apparently critics in committee thought that would open the door to just about anything, so they tightened it up to specifically forbid CSU from offering any Ph.D.s (except under the existing sort of joint-degree arrangements). They also introduced language underlining the Donohoe Act's current prohibition of CSU professional or clinical doctorates in the fields of law, medicine, dentistry or veterinary medicine.

    But at least as I read it, the new bill kind of opens the door to the possibility of CSU offering a host of professional and practitioner's doctorates, such as the Ed.D., Pharm.D., Psy.D., D.P.H., D.Mus.A., D.B.A., D. Engr., O.D., D.P.A., D.A., D.F.A., Au.D., D.P.T., D. Arch., and many more.
     
  10. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    This should be interesting. The proposal limits the exclusivity of the UC system to offering the Ph.D., but does not prohibit the CSUs from offering equivalent research degrees, such as the Ed.D. (most Ed.D. programs are virtually indistinguishible from Ph.D.s in education). The UC's have exclusive right to offer certain first professional doctorates, such as M.D., J.D., D.D.S. and D.V.M., but CSUs, apparently, could offer doctorates in optometry, podiatry, osteopathy, chiropractic and other professional fields.

    The U.S. Department of Education, jointly with the National Science Foundation, publishes a list of 50 research doctoral titles considered to be equivalent to the Ph.D. Under this brilliant legislation, the CSUs should be able to offer all fifty (until of course, some Cal State campusus changes its Ed.D. program to a Ph.D. in education without any modification, as is being done throughout the country).

    The following is taken verbatim from the USDOE website:

    Recognized Research Doctorates

    The best-known research doctorate title awarded in the United States is the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.). However, there are a number of other doctoral titles that enjoy the same status and represent variants of the Ph.D. within certain fields. All of them have similar content requirements.

    You should remember that first-professional doctoral degrees are not research doctorates in those fields. The research doctorate in all such fields is either the Ph.D. or one of the related research doctorates named in the list immediately (below).

    The U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF) recognizes the following degrees as equivalent to the Ph.D.:

    Doctor of Arts (D.A.)
    Doctor of Architecture (D.Arch.)
    Doctor of Applied Science (D.A.S.)
    Doctor of Business Administration (D.B.A.)
    Doctor of Chemistry (D.Chem.)
    Doctor of Criminal Justice (D.C.J.)
    Doctor of Comparative/Civil Law (D.C.L.)
    Doctor of Criminology (D.Crim.)
    Doctor of Environmental Design (D.E.D.)
    Doctor of Engineering (D.Eng.)
    Doctor of Environment (D.Env.)
    Doctor of Engineering Science (D.E.Sc./Sc.D.E.)
    Doctor of Forestry (D.F.)
    Doctor of Fine Arts (D.F.A.)
    Doctor of Geological Science (D.G.S.)
    Doctor of Hebrew Literature/Letters (D.H.L.)
    Doctor of Health and Safety (D.H.S.)
    Doctor of Hebrew Studies (D.H.S.)
    Doctor of Industrial Technology (D.I.T.)
    Doctor of Library Science (D.L.S.)
    Doctor of Music (D.M.)
    Doctor of Musical Arts (D.M.A.)
    Doctor of Musical Education (D.M.E.)
    Doctor of Ministry (D.Min./D.M.)
    Doctor of Modern Languages (D.M.L.)
    Doctor of Music Ministry (D.M.M.)
    Doctor of Medical Science (D.M.Sc.)
    Doctor of Nursing Science (D.N.Sc.)
    Doctor of Public Administration (D.P.H.)
    Doctor of Physical Education (D.P.E.)
    Doctor of Public Health (D.P.H.)
    Doctor of Professional Studies (D.P.S.)
    Doctor of Design (Dr.DES.)
    Doctor of Religious Education (D.R.E.)
    Doctor of Recreation (D.Rec./D.R.)
    Doctor of Science (D.Sc./Sc.D.)
    Doctor of Science in Dentistry (D.Sc.D.)
    Doctor of Science and Hygiene (D.Sc.H.)
    Doctor of Science in Veterinary Medicine (D.Sc.V.M.)
    Doctor of Sacred Music (D.S.M.)
    Doctor of Social Science (D.S.Sc.)
    Doctor of Social Work (D.S.W.)
    Doctor of Education (Ed.D.)
    Doctor of Canon Law (J.C.D.)
    Doctor of Juristic Science (J.S.D.)
    Doctor of the Science of Law (L.Sc.D.)
    Doctor of Rehabilitation (Rh.D.)
    Doctor of Juridical Science (S.J.D.)
    Doctor of Sacred Theology (S.T.D.)
    Doctor of Theology (Th.D.)

    Tony Piña
    Administrator, Northeastern Illinois University
    (I just love this PhD vs. EdD topic!)
     
  11. Arch23

    Arch23 New Member

    It's about time! While I think that the CSUs should be allowed to do doctorates all-the-way, the new bill improves the situation for many Californians who have to go to expensive private schools (such as USC and Pepperdine) or out-of-state schools because there aren't enough spots in the very competitive UCs.
     
  12. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    The Assembly Committee is slated to meet on July 5th to discuss this legislation. We'll keep our eyes open. It looks as though it has great support, so, unless the UC's have some ace up their sleeves, it looks as though this has a great shot at passing.

    Tony
     
  13. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member


    I just e-mailed my state assembly-women and asked her to support this leglislation.
     
  14. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    Are there DL doctorate implications in this? As near as I can tell, it would seem that there might just be a few more schools in California offering traditional B&M non-PhD doctorates.
     
  15. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    You are correct that the intention is for a few more schools to offer traditional B & M doctorates other than the Ph.D. There does not seem to be direct implications for DL doctorates, since the UCs have not really been under market pressure to develop their online degree programs. The CSUs are another story, however. If the CSUs are allowed to offer their own independent doctorates, we may see a DL doctorate (probably with short residency) emerging soon. The UCs, of course will make fun of it, while CSU enrollment goes up.

    If it happens, my money would be on a mostly DL doctorate in educational technology from San Diego State. They have the faculty expertise to pull it off.
     
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    It's weird to think of a dissertation/reseach doctorate "market" but I suppose that's correct.
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't anticipate any big rush to transform the CSUs into research universities though. These new doctoral programs will be in a few high-demand specialty subjects.

    There might also be a low-residency Ed.D. aimed at people working for rural school districts, particularly up there in the northern 1/3'rd of California above Sacramento that nobody ever talks about. (Baja Oregon.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2005
  18. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I'll bet that you're right. The initial justification for giving CSUs the ability to offer their own doctorates was to provide more advanced degrees in education (especially in educational administration). It's too bad that the Ed.S. (educational specialist) degree is not accepted as the standard degree for principals and superintendents (as opposed to the doctorate). It would have made the Ed.D. unnecessary and would have bypassed this whole nonsense about the Ed.D. being an "applied" or "professional" degree, as opposed to the "research-based" Ph.D. I was a student in both a Ph.D. and an Ed.D. program and I had the same research and statistics requirements in both programs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2005

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