Th.M. / M.Th. / S.T.M. : What's the dif?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Bill Grover, May 23, 2005.

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  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    A friend PMed me and asked that I give my understanding of the differences between these degrees.

    The USA ThM. is a 120 grad sem hour masters after the BA. It is my understanding that all RA /ATS accredited Evangelical schools require a good GPA to enter, a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, four years of full time study (one year past the M.Div.) a thesis, and a comprehensive exam. But I may be wrong.

    Dallas Theological Seminary does not offer the standard ministerial three year M.Div. Instead it offers (in addition to the lower MA) the four year ThM. This is called "Master of Theology." Some schools have called the same four year degree "Master of Sacred Theology" (S.T.M.). In fact, one with the MDiv may enter the Dallas higher masters program and receive after a year the S.T.M. .

    Possibly one may see that a Th.M. of this sort is close in duration and rigor to some PhD programs-- which may be, I think, 90-120 units after the BA.

    Yet in some Evangelical schools as Dallas or the Master's Seminary, the ThM. (not the MA or even the MDiv which will not get one in ) is the required prerequisite to begin PhD or ThD work in Theology. (In other schools the MDiv is the prereq).

    My own ThM. was to be a year of full-time study after meeting MDiv equivalencies in '92. But it took me two years.

    IMO it is unfortunate that some "foreign" schools ,as the South African Theological Seminary, are awarding what they, like Dallas and my own , Western, call a "Master of Theology" (M.Th.) degree for one or two years of work after the BA. It appears to be the equivalent of an MA and not that of a ThM. IMO it would be better called an MA in Theology. But perhaps I'm only seeing this from my own narrow perspective and wishing for personal reasons that they'd use a different nomenclature.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2005
  2. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    (1) In those schools that offer both, sometimes the ThM is the thesis degree and the STM is the non-thesis degree while at other schools, the ThM is for their own MDiv graduates and the STM is for other schools' MDiv graduates.

    (2) In the instance of the foreign MTh, it is presumed that the individual admitted to said program has a BD or BTh (a three-year professional program which can be taken immediately after high school).
     
  3. boydston

    boydston New Member

    The ThM and the STM are the same degree -- different nomenclature but the same degree. Check out the ATS degree standards (caution .pdf).

    Really, what the degree is called is pretty secondary to the content of the degree. Note that according to ATS standards the prerequisite for admission to a PhD program is an MDiv or a "first graduate theological degree." I suspect that some schools have made the ThM the standard because either that is their first graduate theological degree (e.g. DTS ) or they are trying to keep the prestige of their degree high -- making it appear more competitive.
     
  4. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Interesting.

    Let's stick to the U.S., if we can, for a moment; and let's leave out the S.T.M....

    When one U.S. school offers an MTh, and another offers a ThM, what is the functional and/or salient difference?

    Or is there, really, no functional/salient difference between a ThM and an MTh? Are they just different ways of saying the same thing?
     
  5. boydston

    boydston New Member

    An MTh and a ThM are the same degree in the ATS system. There are only a handful of ATS schools who use the MTh designation -- and I believe they are all in Canada.

    As noted earlier, in some places around the world an MTh is roughly the same as an MA in theology in the ATS system.

    It's the content of the degree that matters.
     
  6. RevPeter

    RevPeter Member

    I think the content of a degree can vary greatly from institution to institution, as well as the title. What is important is to understand what a particular degree means within the University that awards it.

    If you want real confusion, come to the ancient universities in Ireland & the UK, particularly the theology degrees.

    In QUB (my alma mater), I took a BA in Theology & Music. My wife took a similar course, but in Theology only, and got a BTh. If she had chosen hebrew as one of her options, she would have got a BD (it's just a BTh with greek & hebrew).

    I went to TCD and read for an MPhil. In QUB that would have been an MTh, and the QUB MPhil is the same as the TCD MLitt.

    In TCD, Oxford and Cambridge, the BD is one of the highest post-graduate theology degrees - in Cambridge it is *HIGHER* that a PhD.

    In St Andrew's (Scotland), the MTheol is the first degree in theology - equivalent to the BA, and the BD is the postgraduate degree.

    Confused yet?

    The point I'm trying to make is that you can't compare degree titles without knowing which University they are from - a BD is not always a BD - it could be a first degree, a postgraduate degree, or a post-PhD degree. Likewise an MTheol could be a first degree, an MTh a 1-2 yr p/g degree, or a ThM a 4 yr p/g degree, even though they are all abbreviations of the same degree...

    P
     
  7. jon porter

    jon porter New Member

    RevPeter wrote: In St Andrew's (Scotland), the MTheol is the first degree in theology - equivalent to the BA, and the BD is the postgraduate degree.

    At least when I was there, the BD was also an undergraduate degree. And, of course, so was the MA. But things have changed: my MPhil would now be an MLitt.
     
  8. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Th.M. / M.Th. / S.T.M. : What's the dif?

    ===

    I think both at Unizul and at SATS a four year bachelors is required to enter a masters. My old Unizul catalogue says the B.Th is "An advanced four year degree programme... ." To enter the Unizul MA in Biblical Studies , according to that catalogue, requires an honors BA which is four years or said B.Th (I assume a USA type of four year BA in Bib/Theo would meet the prereq).

    There is yet another variant. My ThB. (Bachelor of Theology) was a fifth year grad degree (one after a four year BA in Bible) taken in a seminary, but in some schools, as above said, the ThB is an undergrad degree requiring fewer years of study.

    The only consistency is inconsistency!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2005
  9. RevPeter

    RevPeter Member

    Dear Jon,

    I've just checked the current regs on the St Andrew's website. The BD is only available as a postgrad degree, but as a first theology degree (in other words, only to non-theology graduates), so I suppose it is the same as the American-style MDiv.

    Regards,

    P
     
  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I am always AMAZED at the amount of work required for degrees in divinity. Just the sheer volume of coursework at any level, and research at advanced levels looks overwhelming.
     
  11. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    No kidding! :(

    Not only the volume of coursework, but the amount of work in the languages can be very daunting!

    Actually, I think that the incredible burden of graduate level coursework in the US for divinity school degrees, and the "lax" foreign requirements goes with the general trend of making a PhD in the US, or any advanced degree, something more like a glorified bachelor's degree.

    ~Chris
     
  12. RevPeter

    RevPeter Member

    Dear Chris,

    If you think "foreign" divinity degrees are more lax than US degrees, come to Dublin and try and earn a BD from Trinity College, or the same from Oxford or Cambridge...

    There seems to be a perception among some people that an American-style PhD (coursework + thesis) is superior to a UK style PhD (thesis only). Academics here in the British Isles take the opposite view - they tend to think that Americans are taking the easy way out by splitting the requirements for the degree between coursework and thesis.

    I think more depends on the individual that the type of degree - when I was an undergraduate we had two lecturers with American doctorates - one was by far the cleverest lecturer (PhD from Yale), and one was perhaps perhaps not the sharpest knife in the block (not sure where he earned his degree).

    P
     
  13. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Geez. No wonder I'm confused. ;)

    Okay... right there... now we're getting somewhere (not that everything else everyone wrote wasn't also getting somewhere, mind you).

    Of course I can't remember where at the moment, but I've seen U.S. schools -- maybe Canadian, too -- use the MTh designation for the shorter, two-year-or-so degrees; and the ThM designation for the longer, four-year-or-so versions. I know I've seen this.

    But it seems you guys are saying, "no... that ain't it." Yes? No?

    (Oh, man... I'm more confused now than ever!) :confused:
     
  14. boydston

    boydston New Member

    It is entirely possible -- but not in an ATS accredited program.
     
  15. Tom H.

    Tom H. New Member

    Glorified Bachelor's Degree???

    Chris,

    Your above statement is quite a stretch. While a masters-level degree has become de rigueur in many fields, a doctorate still represents the completion of the most advanced coursework and original research in a specific discipline.
     
  16. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    Hey there Tom,

    I actually agree that it was a stretch, or it appears that way. But, I think that I was misunderstood also, at least, by RevPeter; where he says...

    I shouldn't have used the term "lax." But, I DID put it in quotes to notify that I was mimicking a popular perception, NOT my own.

    What I meant was a slam on American degree programs. I think the UK actually has the PhD idea right. That is, a PhD should be an advance in scholarly knowledge, not a bunch of advanced courses.

    I agree that many need to do more advanced courses in order to do cutting edge research. But, at least IMHO, most of the US seminary doctorates, or doctorates in religion emphasize courses way too much, especially if they require MDiv's for entry. If someone wants to do a doctorate, they should probably be thinking about it while they are doing thier coursework for the MDiv. That is especially true since the MDiv, according to the standards enforced by ATS, require so many courses.

    ~Chris
     
  17. RevPeter

    RevPeter Member

    Dear Chris,

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Regards,

    Peter
     
  18. RevPeter

    RevPeter Member

    Dear Tom,

    You wrote:
    "a doctorate still represents the completion of the most advanced coursework and original research in a specific discipline."

    The generalisation wouldn't quite hold true for the UK system - unless you were referring specifically to higher doctorates (DSc, LLD, DLitt, DMus etc). Many Universities regard a PhD as a stage between an MA and a *real* doctorate. A PhD is certainly distinguished by original research in the UK, but the most advanced research would be that of a higher doctorate.

    Just another attempt at trying to muddy the waters...

    Regards,

    Peter
     

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