John Bear's response to Neil Hayes

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by John Bear, Apr 26, 2005.

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  1. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I just posted this on the DegreeInformation forum, and thought it might be appropriate to post it here as well. --John Bear

    Neil Hayes writes: "Yes, it's great to play with statistics, but mine show that 'the gang' have posted c50,000 of the c172,000 posts [on DegreeInfo]."

    Bear queries:
    I wonder who you include in "the gang." I may be missing some (please tell me), but I assume you include, with numbers as of this morning:
    Douglas (5,758)
    Janko (4,808)
    Huffman (3,299)
    Hyden (1,758)
    Sainz (1,714)
    Galanga (1,038)

    These total 18,375

    To reach 50,000, you'd also need to include
    Dayson (3,658)
    Bear (3,558)
    Bruce (Tait ) (3,452)
    Grover (2,956)
    Ruhl (2,791)
    Clifton (2,751)
    Tracey (2,578)
    Oxpecker (2,167)
    Nosborne (2,001)
    North (1,946)
    Decimon (1,468)
    Nixon (1,399)

    Are you putting us/them into your "gang' as well? Just wondering.

    Neil Hayes writes:
    "The remaining posts, including my 400+, were made by people who no longer post there."

    Bear queries:
    Ah, a clear statement that is checkable. So I checked. I looked at 500 recent posts, and here is what I found:
    42 of them (8.4%) were made by people on the above lists ("gang" and others).
    458 of them (91.6%) were made by more than 200 other people. I stopped putting them in my database when I reached 100, but just to show I was doing the work, here are those:
    ------------------------------------------------
    aarbrooks, abecve, Abner, agilham, alarming idea, alc712, AMS79, Andrew M3Z, Anthony Pina, AV8R, Blue Mason, bo79, BrianM, buckwheat3, bullet, CalDog, cdhale, Charles, clay, Dave Wagner, deanhughson, Deb, Denver, DesElms, DexterW, djjfp, dlady, Dr. Latin Juris, edowave, eric, Gunsmoke, heylou, humbug101, Ian Anderson, igotinfo, Ike, itaiansupernova, Jake_A, javila5400, JDCUSAF, JE Brunton, jek2839, jugador, Kelechi, Kozen, larryjf, lerner, littlefauss, marcus carey, Mary A, me again, mfh, MiguelStefan, Mike Roth, mineralhh, Morgan Khanstein, Mr. Engineer, myoptimism, nosborne48, November dude, onthefence, PatsFan, paula, Peaceforall, persiangulf, Peter Chin, PhD Cyberspace, PhD2B, philosophy, Plantagenet, plsscott, QuiltLady, Revkag, Robb CD, roymayberry, rtongue, Russ, Russell, RXI, RXI, Samual Chong, scubastevelu, spmoran, stanislav, stevefoerster, stevekurdzin, Sunsfan, taytrautman, Ted Heiks, tigerhead, Tireman4, Tobeistodo, Tom H, TONY YAP, tsling, unixman, W_Parker, walami89, Wild Bill, zvavda
    ------------------------------------------------
    So with all due respect, Neil Hayes' statement is not supported by the evidence. Indeed, the evidence suggests a vibrant group at DegreeInfo, in which, as with many others, lots of new people arrive, some old ones disappear, and some trudge on forever.

    Neil Hayes:
    ""The remaining posts, including my 400+, were made by people who no longer post there."

    John Bear
    Perhaps Neil Hayes has decided to stop, in pectore, but he posted his NZ honors notice a few months ago at DegreeInfo -- and promptly got pleasant congratulations from Uncle Janko, Rich Douglas, and others.

    Neil Hayes: "Of course, DegreeInfo would be a far better DL forum without 'the gang'..."

    John Bear
    I disagree vigorously. Of course I would like to see all the unkind and irrelevant posts gone from that forum (and this one). But it seems to me that there is an immense amount of wheat among the chaff. Just as one small example, I looked at 100 recent posts by Rich Douglas (from March and April 2005). In my opinion:
    62 provided factual information without snarky comments
    9 answered other posters' questions simply and neutrally
    21 commented on other comments (9 aggressively, 12 politely or neutrally)
    6 miscellaneous (mostly non-educational matters, like handcuffing 5-year-olds)
    2 were truly snarky
    Seems OK to me. Hayes would banish Rich, Bear wouldn't. That's what makes duck races.

    Neil Hayes: "I believe that my statistics reveal some of the real facts behind DegreeInfo."

    John Bear: I believe that my statistics reveal some of the real facts behind DegreeInfo.
     
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the interesting tidbits of facts.

    P.S. Proud to have been named specifically by Mr. Hayes as one of those "gang" members. :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2005
  3. aic712

    aic712 Member

    Neil seems like an absolute virus, and a pedant...

    Thank you for the interesting information, I am glad to be a small part of the degreeinfo universe,
     
  4. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    Maybe all pseudonyms of the gang?

    None Dare Call It Conspiracy.
     
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Hey.....I was inducted into the "Gang" years ago! :D
     
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I refuse to be a member of any gang whose standards are so low as to admit me.
     
  7. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    First I'd just like to say that I wish that whoever decides the composition of "the gang" would make up their mind as to whether I'm in or out . . . after all, I have to know which business cards to use. :rolleyes:
    Second I'd like to point out that according to the statistics provided by each website, as of 7:30 pm on 04/26/05, Degreeinformation has 78 members while Degreeinfo has 7,095 members. I know that Degreeinfo has been around longer but it seems clear that this is where people go for clear, accurate information, even if the comments get a bit snarky sometimes. Degreeinformation really is just a few guys talking to themselves.
    Jack
     
  8. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You mean there are other forums? I hadn't noticed.

    -=Steve=-
     
  9. Charles

    Charles New Member

    John,

    Thanks for the stats. I had not read the Degreeinformation board until today. Can't really see myself spending too much time on that one.

    Chip,

    Thanks for maintaining this site.

    Gang, Original Gangsters, New Gang, Old Gang, and everyone else who posts here, thanks for making it fun and informative.
     
  10. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Man, I must admit, that John Bear is one suave dude!

    Hasta la bye bye!

    Abner :)
     
  11. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Jack,

    Wasn't it 1000 posts that qualifies one for Grand Patoobah status? - Ted.
     
  12. Jodokk

    Jodokk Member

    What a dork!

    I'm just a junior member without enough free time to be more active here, but... I am very PROUD to have the gang on board. Between them the truth above any college situation usually comes out. Hell, the information on this board really ought not to be free! It's priceless, but supremely valuable. The gang is like a group of high priced consultants (and some are) who are right here anytime you need them. There is NOT another place like this on the internet and I'm happy that it is protected from the shill and the dork alike.

    The fact that the largest degree of posts are from such knowledgeable folks is a credit to the value of the board. I don't understand how it's a "bad" thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2005
  13. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    No, it is more like a few guys talking about degreeinfo. Many of the post there are nothing more than constant digs at DI and it's members. There is very little help on the other forum, yet you see helpful threads here often. Most often if someone ask a question here it will be answered soon and maybe more than once. Things do often get out of hand here when accreditation and diploma mills are discussed, but I do not think either side can claim innocense when it comes to bad behavior.

    Over time it is easy to see who likes to stir the pot, jerk the chains, and keep the battles going. There is a lot of hypocrisy being shown by complaining about name calling, banning, and other rude behavior when that is EXACTLY what is going on there. It is hard to buy into how bad "the gang" is when the seller is doing EXACTLY what he accuses "the gang" of.
     
  14. PETEUSA1

    PETEUSA1 New Member

    Someday I`ll be part of the gang...at least this gets me to 59
     
  15. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I hate to see postings here -- no matter how inherently true they may be -- about the other, more troublesome fora. It gives them both more attention, and the mistaken appearance of more legitimacy, than they either have or deserve.

    Just my $.02 worth.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Three things:

    First, the term "the gang" comes from Les Snell's use of the term "Gang of 6," referring to six prominent posters on a.e.d. that publicized heavily his degree mill activities. Snell had a couple of million-dollar settlements against him for those mills and went underground. I'm not sure of all of the original gang members (Levicoff and Bear, surely, perhaps Blahetka. Others? I don't really remember.) But I was never a member of the Gang of 6. Still, it's nice of Neil to include me anyway.

    Second, I find it very interesting that Hayes and his shill buddies invoke a term created by a degree mill operator, complaining about our activities regarding degree mills he's attended (and others). Boy, talk about self-defeating.

    Finally, Bear's numbers regarding my last hundred posts. Two that were "snarky"? I don't deny it, but (a) I wonder which two and (b) I'm surprised it's only that many. To hear the people at Degreeinformation DL, you'd think that's all I ever did.
     
  17. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Regarding which two, it was my favorite two. I'm not trying to make you too jealous but I suspect that I would have far more than 2 in my last 100 posts. :D
     
  18. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Don't give 'em the time-o-day

    And it makes us do here the very thing we chastise them for doing: Responding in their forum to things they read in ours... only in this case, now, it's us responding to stuff we read in theirs. I just hate to see that, no matter what.

    We can make no more effective or cogent commentary about their goings on than to simply ignore them. To spend any time -- any time at all -- countering here what they write over there (or on any of the other diploma-mill-operator-frequented fora) is a huge waste of time, makes them feel more purposeful and relevant than they have any right to feel, and gives them the satisfaction of getting us to devote our precious time to them and their silliness. They bait us to react. It's what they do. It's what all disenfranchised, disaffected, dysfunctional knuckleheads do. When we react -- as they've successfully baited us to do here -- they get to wonder if they're actually good at it.

    Reasonable people who have any horse sense at all will read their words about us, and then come here and read our actual words, and will be able to see in an instant that those others are just a bunch of miscreants. People who can't figure that out... well... they pretty much get what they deserve.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2005
  19. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    I think that both plcscott and Gregg are right. Still, I don't think it's a bad thing to correct inaccurate information. After all, that's half of what goes on at degreeinfo, correcting the misrepresentations made by others (mistakenly or otherwise).
    Jack
     
  20. GUNSMOKE

    GUNSMOKE New Member

    Neil Hayes?????????????

    Doc.B:

    Please pardon my ignorece but who is Neil Hayes and why should I care about his opinions on this or anything else? I mean, if he is someone who contributes to this great place okay but, I doubt it, anyone who CONTRIBUTES here is not going to imply it is lacking in value without a much more substantial argument than that drivel.
     

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