Law school rankings and tuition costs

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by nosborne48, Apr 8, 2005.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    In another thread, little fauss mentioned that my law school, the University of New Mexico, advanced significantly in the latest U.S. News rankings. This is only mildly interesting to me personally but I think that there's an opportunity to test a theory here.

    Highly ranked law schools are overwhelmingly, though not exclusively, private institutions. Total tuition for a J.D. at ANY private ABA school has risen to the $100,000 mark.

    Now, there is some significant research out there (i.e. look at the Texas Board of Law Examiners site www.state.ble.us) that says that the overall Bar passage rate for a given school has a close corrolation to the average LSAT score of the entering class. There is also a significant connection between UGPA and both LSAT and Bar performance, IIUC.

    U.S. News looks at several factors inarriving at their rankings and among these are first time Bar pass rates and entering class average LSAT and UGPA.

    I suggest that the improvement in rankings of state schools like UNM might be in part attributable to growing competition among top tier students seeking to attend such schools for reasons of COST. In short, the improvement in ranking comes from an improvement in the average quality of the incoming students rather than from any major changes by the school administration.

    Now California is a special case and potential laboratory:

    The State of California has allowed the total tuition cost for a resident J.D. student to reach about $60,000, a hefty chunk of change indeed, considering that the state law schools are full time day programs and restrict outside employment. For a significant number of otherwise well qualified applicants, this may be just too much to pay, even if it CAN be borrowed.

    HYPOTHESIS:

    Many students with high LSAT scores and UGPA are not as willing to go to the "best school they can get into" anymore because the cost has become so high as to threaten the student's ability to repay his loans upon graduation.

    Because there IS NO really reasonably priced ABA accredited J.D. program in California any more, there SHOULD be a significant number of well prepared but impecunious California law students opting to spend the $24,000 to $34,000 total tuition demanded by CalBar accredited schools instead of attending State schools as in the past.


    PREDICTIONS:

    1. Bar passage rates for first time takers attending non ABA but CalBar accredited schools should show a significant improvement over the next few years. This should be especially noticeable at CalBar schools that are WASC accredited because these schools participate in federal student financial assistance programs.

    2. The improving record at these CalBar schools will make them seem more acceptable to potential law students in general. Thus, the overall quality of the applicant pool will continue to improve. and with it, professional acceptability.

    3. Bar passage rates for first time takers attending the lower tier California private ABA schools should remain stable or fall a bit as some of the better prepared students elect CalBar schools instead of private ABA schools.

    4. Bar passage rates and rankings for UC schools and the two most prominent private law schools, Stanford and U.S.C., will remain astronomically high because there remain large numbers of well prepared applicants who ARE willing to incur enormous debt or have private means to defray all or part of the cost.

    Comments?
     
  2. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    Now THAT'S a word!


    As for your thesis, you're probably right. If more people start applying to non-ABA Cal-only accredited law schools for financial reasons, that can only boost those schools' reputations as they can afford to be more selective.

    Example of a person who didn't go the elite school route who likely could've: my primary client is currently involved in litigation with a client represented by an attorney from California who had outstanding credentials--an M.B.A. from Berkeley-Haas, for example--and yet turned his back on the prestige schools out there, and went to Western State for law. Western has only provisional ABA approval and I do not believe had approval at all when he graduated in the 90s.

    This guy has a pretty successful practice and as he practices in California only, I doubt it was a problem for him. He probably benefitted from the lower tuition, though.

    I personally think that law school rankings are a bit silly, they weigh so heavily such fuzzy factors as faculty, lawyer and judge opinions as to what's the better school. Kind of silly, that's just a way of ensuring that the "name" schools will remain forever there, propped up artificially even if their bar passage rates slide. Perhaps rather than a vague "peer assessment", maybe something more objective, like the number of articles produced per faculty member, multiplied by a factor--admittedly subjective--accounting for the prestige of the journal,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2005
  3. tmartca

    tmartca New Member

    2. The improving record at these CalBar schools will make them seem more acceptable to potential law students in general. Thus, the overall quality of the applicant pool will continue to improve. and with it, professional acceptability.


    You can look at the recent passage rates for LaVerne Law School (CalBar accredited) as support for this. Definately cheaper than the ABA law schools in SoCal at a little over $23,000 annually for the full-time program. They seem to have a large scholarship fund as well. I'm looking at them after I complete my MBA this fall. They are applying for ABA accreditation so we'll see where their tuition costs go from here.
     
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    LaVern IS an amazing example. Not cheap by the standard of non ABA schools but MUCH cheaper than any private ABA school in California and only slightly more expensive than the UC schools.

    And a Bar passage rate of, what, eighty per cent? MUCH better than most private ABA schools in California.

    Another interesting (to me) observation: The Bar pass rate for graduates of out-of-state ABA schools ALSO seems to vary with the prestige of the school. Yale and Harvard do very, very well.

    Incidently, LaVern has been exploring ABA accreditation for ten years that I know of; they really don't seem very committed to receiving it. Why, after all? They have a good reputation and their grads pass the Bar.
     
  5. tmartca

    tmartca New Member

    ^ This in LaVerne's third attempt at ABA accreditation. I remember reading an article where in mentioned that the ABA cited their lack of law volumes in their library as one of the major reasons for their denial in the last attempt at accreditation. Since then they have built an entire new law school in Ontario, CA about a 30 minute drive east for the ULV campus. And with the emergence of electronic resources, they should have no problem getting the green light unless they measure this in terms of only hardcopy resources.

    Also, ULV is the only accredited law school in the San Bernardino and Riverside county area, so it's also a matter of filling a demand and attempting to bolster the area.
     
  6. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    BYU is private, ranked 34th(?), and total tuition is under $33,000. What a deal.

    http://www.law2.byu.edu/Admissions/expenses.htm
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes, BYU is a heck of a deal. I understand that it helps a lot to be Mormon when you apply. Makes sense; the LDS Church subsidizes the University, I believe.

    I was thinking about the top ten or maybe twenty law schools when I made my statement. I should have been clearer.

    My personal definition of a "top school" is one so well known that its graduates will be competitive in any market nationwide.

    Now, to be ABSOLUTELY honest, I base my classification on absolutely NO research or experience! However, I have HEARD third or fourth hand, for example, that a Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, or Columbia law school grad will be very, very competitive nationwide in seeking employment with large, hideously well paying civil practice firms and also in obtaining federal judicial clerkships and prestigeous Department of Justice appointments. Such a graduate will also have a major leg up for initial faculty appointments in law schools.

    It DOES seem that graduates of these schools, and a few others like, I guess, U.S.C., U.T. Austin, U. Michigan and maybe Berkeleyor UCLA? are seriously overrepresented in the upper financial reaches of the private Bar and upper ranks of our federal government.

    With respect, I don't think a BYU (or UNM for that matter) degree has quite the nationwide "legs" of a J.D. from one of the aforementioned (and mostly private and expensive) schools.
     

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