http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/education/09grad.html For anyone contemplating graduate school, this situation may translate into easier acceptance, less competition for grants, stipends, assistant-ships, etc. On a social commentary note, I've always been dismayed at what appears to me to be less enthusiasm amoungst students from the US to pursue advanced graduate degrees in math, science and engineering. Hopefully you won't detect any unintended racial bias in my observations, but in my own research of graduate schools I noticed what appeared to me to be a high percentage of foreigners in Computer Science faculties. While I'm not particularly zenophobic, I do wish that I would have seen more western sounding names because I see this lack of interest in higher education as a failing of our society. Hopefully, this trend (if it is a trend) indicated by the NY Times arcticle will encourage graduate schools to increase their focus on recruiting domestic students. Also, because I believe we live in a society that values commerical goals over academic goals (not a bad thing), I hope this spurs universities to devote more resources to distance learning programs so that adults who work full time can pursue lofty academic goals as well.
Traditionally, we generally have welcomed smart people from around the world who want to work and live by our rules. I see no reason to be concerned about large numbers of these folks coming to the States, especially to study. What I'm concerned about is a precipitous decline in those folks coming here. Why are they not still coming and what can we learn from it? As to your comment about our own citizens not studying in these fields, I've often wondered how we arrived at that conclusion; is it because the demand is always so strong? Don't know. Dave
Here's why: http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html Don't Become a Scientist! Jonathan I. Katz Professor of Physics Washington University, St. Louis, Mo.
Re: Re: Still Fewer Foreigners Applying to American Graduate Schools Well, that's one interpretation...
That is the general consensus of every single NAFSA and AACRAO meeting I have attended. Though this showed up in my e-mail to day.
Can someone say exactly what these "visa hassles" involve? (BTW, I'm already convinced that this is exactly the answer, I just don't know exactly what is different now). Is the application fee higher? Is there more scrutiny of the application? Is there some sort of interview included now? I'm just wondering what exactly is different? Just curious. Jack
The answer is simple; the US goverment is making more difficult to get student visas. It is also difficult to secure employment after graduation due to the weak american economy.
The answer is quite simple. There is nothing wrong with american students; but why to bother with a PhD in computer science for a 40K a year faculty position when you can get the same money with a B.Sc. Foreign born faculty members fill a gap that is not attractive to local graduates. On the other hand, a faculty member from India with a PhD is happy with the 40K because he was making 10K in India. The US benefits from large intakes of foreign students. First these students will spend money in the US economy while completing their degrees and then will contribute to the economy by taking jobs that local graduates are not willing to take.
Lots more hassles getting the visa (you have to attend an interview in person). A much higher failure rate. And it takes two to three times as long as it used to. One story that made the news over here was of a student studying at Insead. Insead have an exchange programme with Wharton. The student was a Mexican national of Arab descent whose visa took so long that his programme at Wharton was over by the time he was got to the front of the queue. http://www.economist.com/business/globalexecutive/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2278388 Angela
Re: Re: Still Fewer Foreigners Applying to American Graduate Schools Is that really all that Computer Science faculty make? Is there some reason why these same PhD's who take faculty jobs don't just get a industry job and make more money? Are you saying then that while there is a lack of representation of native born PhD's in academic faculties, that there are plenty of them in industry? I worry that my country has become a country of facilitators instead of creators. Of MBAs and sychophants instead of engineers and scientests. Hopefully, faculty represent a poor sampling of PhDs as a whole.
Re: Re: Re: Still Fewer Foreigners Applying to American Graduate Schools To answer your question, a faculty position is normally the ticket to a green card in the US. For the same reason, a foreigner would prefer a faculty position over an industry one. Salary floors are 40K but I would expect higher salaries at some Universities to the 60K or 80K range. I don't think that there are plenty of PhDs in industry but rather think that local graduates wouldn't bother with a PhD since industry pays you well even at the master's level. If the US would decide to close the doors to foreign academics, then american academics would benefit as salaries would increase and more jobs would become available but on the other hand the cost of education would increase and transmitted to the american students. Also, American Universities require "top" level faculty in order to remain competitive at the international level and this means to recruit for the best that exists internationally. There is no "free-lunch", if you want to benefit from low tuition fees and high level of education then you will need to open the doors to "cheap faculty labour".
This is also why Americans rarely pursue graduate degrees in law other than the LL.M. in taxation or some similar specialty. The doctorate is essentially unknown.
Just nitpicking here.... but I think this is important for anyone taking any type of education past high school (or even IN high school). I believe the word you were searching for is "xenophobic" from the Greek root words "xenos" (meaning "stranger") and "phobos" (meaning "fear"). Important for BSCS students from FSU to know this kind of thing before they graduate..... - Carl
My friend from Ukraine here at FSU actually missed a semester due to "administrative check" taking too long. Let's not forget Consular officer have the right to deny any application he/she doesn't right for any reason, giving blanket excuse "failed to prove nonimmigrant intent". So U.S. government can increase failure rate at any time without any new law or regulation, just by giving new instructions to the officers.
Re: Re: Still Fewer Foreigners Applying to American Graduate Schools Of course maybe I was just saying that I'm not really afraid of zen buddhists?
Okay, given that some of us seem to have observed fewer US citizens pursuing doctoral degrees, does this affect our capability (as a country) of producing the best scientists, the best engineers, the best legal scholars, etc.? This is what I worry about -- that our culture, our tax code, our whatever, seems to encourage people to follow paths that do not lead to being the best minds in a field which actually creates something new, whether this be technology or philosophical understanding. I fear that we are doomed as a country to be quickly relegated to "old Europe" status.
There's an article in this week's 'Economist' about a drop-off in foreign students studying at British universities. The decline is about 5%. The article talks about various Britain-specific reasons for that, and inevitably serves as the occasion for some national self-criticism. (Just as this thread does for Americans.) But interestingly, the article says that applications from most countries are holding steady or even up slightly. What accounts for the overall decline is a precipitous 25% drop in students from the People's Republic of China (which is by far the largest source of foreign students in the UK). So I wonder if the drop in foreign students studying in the US is across the board, or whether it's the result of larger declines from a handful of countries. And I wonder if the reasons for that might have more to do with events at their end than at ours.
Re: Re: Re: Still Fewer Foreigners Applying to American Graduate Schools Good comeback..... HAHA. Sorry to pick on you about the language - I'm in the "technology field" myself, and am fairly severe on "college educated" computer science / engineering types who never learn anything beyond their science, including proper use of language. Not that you are in that category - just making a little point. FSU is a great school, and I wish you the very best!
I think that using the word "doomed" is a bit much. I'd guess that this is just a market correction (is that the right term?) For example, becoming a Medical Doctor is not quite the high status, high paying job that it once was. The extensive, arduous training, long hours, high malpractice premiums, HMO hassles, etc. So guess who's going to US medical schools now? A lot of women and a lot of non-US folks. We hear all the time how competitive it is trying to get a tenure-track university position. So who wants to put all their apples into that one basket. Earn a PhD and then what? Stand in line for an adjunct position at some school 1000 miles away from home? What would be interesting would be to see some infomation on what fields people are choosing, a sort of Top Ten Fields of Graduate Study sort of thing. Who has that link? Jack
