I am divorced mom who was looking to get a raise and a promotion at work. I enrolled in the Business Administration course at KW in 2003. After easily completing 2 or 3 classes I got into financial trouble. I have a loan through Sallie Mae. I found out that because it is a government loan it can not be forgiven in a bankruptcy. Next, I contacted KW and told them I could no longer afford to complete my courses. I was told "sorry" it has to be finished. No matter how long it takes I will be charged $100 per month indefinetly until all courses are completed. Currently, I can't even afford the textbook for the next class let alone the Sallie Mae payment. After reading all of the threads on this and other web sites, I see that even if I get a degree from KW it doesn't really mean anything anyway. I don't know what to do now. Any suggestions?
Refunds Check some of the other threads. There was one concerning KW issuing refunds to students over degrees. If you can find someone in the know about getting a refund they might have an idea on getting the charges dropped.
It Sallie Mae not Direct (stafford) loans that are issues directly from the government. I guess that Sallie Mae, being a quasi-private company, has lower standard (and higher interest rates) than DoE funds like the Direct Loans.
Wow! If that is really true, that students are using Sallie Mae loans for K-W, they should be investigated as a fraud and theft charges pressed. Perhaps the poster had Sallie Mae loans from another institution she is talking about?
Wow! If that is really true, that students are using Sallie Mae loans for K-W, they should be investigated as a fraud and theft charges pressed. Perhaps the poster had Sallie Mae loans from another institution she is talking about? Possibly, but thats is only if they have a requirement that they school must be accredited. If Sallie Mae requires that a institution must be state approved then there this is not a fraudulant action based on presenting false accreditation. Now in other areas, maybe. Considering all the accounting irregularities and other shady activities that have been going on at Sallie Mae the past few years are you really surprised at this???
This was a main revelation and focus of the Senator Collins hearing. As explained by a former KW enrollment counselor, federal loans for degree programs are only for properly accredited schools, but they can pay for individual non-degree courses that are not accredited. KW, according to Admissions Counselor Andrew Coulombe, would enroll people in a series of individual non-degree courses, which were paid by federal loans -- and then put these courses together and award a degree.
Wow! That to me is out and out fraud. We have a pretend school that has a library and teachers available that students are NEVER required to use. K-W issues Bachelors degrees for 4-6 courses, but charges thousands of dollars that some students are using Sallie Mae loans for! No wonder K-W is issuing refunds even to graduates. I certainly would be covering my trail much better than this if I was going to undertake criminal activity like K-W apparently is. I am guessing this will be part of the upcoming Senate Hearings Alan talked about.
Wow! That to me is out and out fraud. We have a pretend school that has a library and teachers available that students are NEVER required to use. K-W issues Bachelors degrees for 4-6 courses, but charges thousands of dollars that some students are using Sallie Mae loans for! No wonder K-W is issuing refunds even to graduates. I certainly would be covering my trail much better than this if I was going to undertake criminal activity like K-W apparently is. I am guessing this will be part of the upcoming Senate Hearings Alan talked about. Unethical? Quite possible, depends on your POV. Fraud? No. Here's why: Dr. Bear pointed out that KW uses a loophole in the current law. Committing a fraud is breaking the law. KW and similar are not doing that. They are allowed to keep this practice up by exploiting the loophole in the law. So the way to fix this is by closing the loophole. Simple as that. (If only passing legislation were that simple.)
Hi Tmartca I must admit I am not familiar with you which surprises me considering you have 59 posts. In any event, I disagree with you. K-W apparently is breaking the law by committing fraud. They are stating individuals are doing individual classes (and specifically NOT degree programs) when this isn't the case. They also are presenting 4-6 classes as grounds for a Bachelors level education when it isn't. It is easy to see why they are giving out refunds fast and furiously! I wouldn't want the Federal government coming after me either! The upcoming hearings should be interesting!
I'm not a lawyer and have not read Wyoming's anti-fraud law (or any other state's, for that matter). I do know though that unless the state has laws specifically targeting academic fraud, proving fraud in those cases is very time consuming. On the other hand, determined prosecution has been successful in the past. Has KWU mislead potential students? To me it appears that they have and that criminal fraud charges might be successful. Will prosecution happen though? I kind of doubt it because I doubt that it will become a high enough priority for law enforcement.
I don't know enough about the law to be at all certain but I'm guessing that intent would be a factor here. It's not like the hypothetical student was taking courses and then one day woke up and discovered, "Hey, without planning this at all I find I've taken enough courses for a degree." The entire thing is set up to mislead the loan agency. The person is taking the courses on a non-degree basis knowing that they're actually pursuing a degree. The "school" is registering the student for non-degree courses and taking the loan money knowing the entire time that they're going to pull a switch at some point. I would think that it's the planfull nature of this that makes it fraud. Of course, the fact that it's not a real university also comes into play at some point as well. Jack
Hi Tmartca I must admit I am not familiar with you which surprises me considering you have 59 posts. In any event, I disagree with you. K-W apparently is breaking the law by committing fraud. They are stating individuals are doing individual classes (and specifically NOT degree programs) when this isn't the case. They also are presenting 4-6 classes as grounds for a Bachelors level education when it isn't. It is easy to see why they are giving out refunds fast and furiously! I wouldn't want the Federal government coming after me either! The upcoming hearings should be interesting! I not going to argue the 4-6 classes. You and I both know that any reputable institution of higher education would want more than that. However, what is in question here is whether or not this is allowable (legal). Obviously it is because even with an official government investigation, (where this practice was identified and highlighted) KW was still able to conduct this practice. You mention the students' intent (degree). Couldn't there be a scenario where there is a college or university with no residency requirement?? They are able to take classes anywhere and transfer the units as long as they meet their standard. You could take courses exclusively through them or through another school. Once you complete the requirements for the degree, you apply to receive the degree. Excelsior is very close to this scenario. I don't know most of the specifics, but they don't have a residency requirement and can complete the course requirements through other schools. Of course they are RA. However couldn't an unaccreditited school do they same thing??
I don't see the residency issue as being relevant. There are plenty of schools that offer 100% non-residential degrees. Transferring the courses in from some other school(s) doesn't change the fact that a person is in a formal degree program that has specific course requirements related to the number of credits in a major area, language requirements, science requirements, etc. If you are following these requirements consistently it doesn't matter which school the credits are coming from. In that scenario you are not a person simply taking semi-random courses for pleasure, you are in a degree program intending to earn a degree. Beyond those issues, my response was related to the fact that this unaccredited school is accepting loan money by pretending that the students are not really seeking degrees but are just taking courses for personal enrichment or some such nonsense. They are telling lies in order to get the loan money. Jack
Hi Tmartca I must admit I am unsure what you are arguing for. Transfering in courses? Classes that basically have no learning? Schools that say they have a standard, but in truth don't? If all you are suggesting is there are some unaccredited schools that are legitimate, I agree with you. If you are trying to suggest K-W is one of them, I disagree. I think K-W has been discussed thoroughly enough for every one to know exactly what they are. I don't mind rehashing that if need be, but I would suggest we do so in a more clear and direct manner.
Dave, two things: First: You and I both know that any reputable institution of higher education would want more than that. What I am saying is that KW degrees are BS with little or no academic value. I wanted to make it clear that I am not focusing on KW's legitimacy or lack of it. Second: what is in question here is whether or not this is allowable (legal). I wanted to focus more on the law/policy which allows them to receive student loan funding. You stated earlier that what KW is doing is out and out fraud. To me it is not that black and white. Now you could make a prima facie (intent of the law) argument stating that KW's activities with regards to receiving student loan funding is violating the intent of the law (Kind of like what Jack was saying about suddenly "waking up" and deciding to get a degree). However, if someone (like KW) were to argue the exact letter of the law I do not see it as a slam dunk for the opposing party given the loophole that was pointed out earlier. I understand that the HEA is up for renewal, there are a couple amendments (like student loan eligibility for online programs) which are aimed at adapting the law to present times. Maybe this loophole in student loan funding can be addressed at that time.
The one very sad thing I've learned in my hobby of following degree mill issues over the last few years is that the argument that the institution must be legal because they have not been closed down is falacious. There's numerous examples of diploma mills that have been found guilty of fraud after operating for many years. In this regard, KWU has fled three different jurisdictions when those states passed stricter anti-mill laws. The big advantage of anti-mill laws is NOT that they make degree mills illegal to operate. Degree mills have been successfully prosecuted in the past based on more general fraud laws but, it is far more difficult to build and prove the case. So what the anti-mill laws really do is make the job of law enforcement much easier when prosecuting diploma mills. So the question to you, tmartca, is why has KWU fled three states after those states passed stricter anti-mill laws? Their business practices haven't changed that much. As a matter of fact, that's obviously why they fled so that they wouldn't have to change a proven money making technique. I suspect that the crux of our discussion should be focused on whether or not stricter anti-mill laws are making something illegal that was previously legal or they are just making enforcement of already illegal activities easier? I'm totally convinced that they are simply an aid to enforcement.
So the question to you, tmartca, is why has KWU fled three states after those states passed stricter anti-mill laws?... I suspect that the crux of our discussion should be focused on whether or not stricter anti-mill laws are making something illegal that was previously legal or they are just making enforcement of already illegal activities easier? I'm totally convinced that they are simply an aid to enforcement. There are plenty of discussions/threads/avenues on here and other channels debating KW's legitimacy. There is a discussion (this thread) where there is an attempt to explore the way businesses like KW attempt to skirt the intent of the law with regards to student loan funding in order to make a profit. In an answer to your question, it is because of their inadequate educational quality of their programs. Your preaching to the choir man. So a question to you, Bill Huffman, (and others) is whether or not the student loan aspect is a contributor to their movement?? Also, is there is evidence of similar "schools" doing the exact same thing that KW has been doing with regards to student loan funding??? Is it a regualr practice, or is KW the exception?? If this is a regular practice, then what has been the trend?? Steady increase? Rapid, exponential increase? In any event, the HEA renewal is the perfect chance to correct this. Get on the horn people.
Regarding just the student loan issue, I have not ever argued that this was or was not fraud. I would be surprised if it turned out that any laws were broken on that specific issue. I would guess that KWU is far more vulnerable to charges of misleading students into believing that the utility of a KWU degree is greater than it really is.
