Interesting classical music article

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by uncle janko, Jan 2, 2005.

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  1. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

  2. adireynolds

    adireynolds New Member

    Interesting read, thanks!
     
  3. Rob Coates

    Rob Coates New Member

    Great. Now I have to feel uncomfortable enjoying Wagner.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The only classical music I like are the works of Strauss, Brahms, Rossini, and Ravel, in that order.
     
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    No, Rob, you don't have to be uncomfortable (Sachsenschwein though he was).

    If you like his book Judentum und Musik, then eat hot death you Nazi filth.

    But the music, well, I go off and on with Wagner, mostly bored senseless and irritated by the chromaticism and by the blasphemy in Parsifal, but occasionally, OK, so he was a Jew-hater, an adulterer, and an all around fun guy, the overture to Tannhaeuser is one of the great things, Meistersinger is spectacular, and I recently unearthed my old set of the Ring (done by Kna!) and will try yet again to get through it.

    So enjoy. You could also do what I do: only buy Wagner CD's conducted by Jews (the Knappertsbusch set predated this minor act of vengeance).

    As to what they ought to do in Israel, well, I can readily understand those who are very upset by the idea of performing Wagner. I think, though, that I would side with the decision to perform. There have been, after all, many prominent Jewish musicians who have performed Wagner. Also, if as the article mentions, vicious anti-Semites among composers were to be excluded, then why not Chopin (esp in light of the Kielce pogrom in 1946) or Debussy (in light of French collaboration)? Surely there are survivors there from those horrors. This is not to gainsay the revulsion felt toward Wagner at all. But I think my reluctant decision would be to perform.

    While I'm at it, nobody ever thinks of boycotting the music of composers who were instruments of the Soviet state during its genocidal period. To do so would be wrong. However, despite the well-worked portrait of him as a dissident, Dmitrii Shostakovich was a "non-party valued asset" and eventually a Communist Party member. That his periods of terrible disfavour took a dreadful toll on him and wrecked his health, and that he befriended many wholehearted dissidents, cannot and dare not be denied. That he was publicly and conspicuously servile toward the Great Butcher is also beyond doubt. But minus the party membership, the very same things could be said mutatis mutandis of Wilhelm Furtwaengler.

    Enjoy the music.

    Janko
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Which Strauss?
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't think I have ever mentioned I like Strauss without being asked this question, ha!

    The "Waltz King," of course. ;)
     
  8. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Better'n Leo...
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Wow! Now there's a name I hadn't heard of or tought of in nearly 20 years!
     
  10. pacaschera

    pacaschera New Member

    Disquieting Article

    Reject the music because of the lives and actions of the men who created it...interesting concept.

    Should we then reject the science, the saints, and our historically revered leaders (to name but a few)?

    Nazi Germany's barbaric experiments yielded scientific knowledge at the cost of millions of lives (first to equate smoking with cancer and enforce bans in both public and private places)...Carl Djerassido, who many anti-abortionists believe is a murderer on the scale of Hitler because of his invention of the birth control pill (all those murdered, unwanted children)...Mother Theresa who believed that providing pain relievers to the dying and suffering interfered with God's design which was that man was put on this earth to suffer (tsk, tsk, denying pain relief to hundreds of dying patients)...and lastly (although more examples can be found throughout history), America's slaughter of it's Native Americans tribes, enforcement of legalized slavery world-wide by everyone from the founding fathers to royalty and foreign heads of state...should these men and women and their contributions in history be diminished for these acts?

    As a species, I find we are all both good and evil and the degree to which one side is presented in history sometimes only depends on what side of the fence you happen to be standing on when you are writing it. On my side, there seem to be so much pure evil, which makes it truly amazing that we have not annihilated ourselves yet!

    "We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses." -- Jung
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    So much for a thread on classical music.
     
  12. Rob Coates

    Rob Coates New Member

    I certainly do not like the book you referenced. In fact his personal life and history disgust me as does the fact that Hitler was a fan of Wagner. I'm only aware of and like the sound of the well known pieces like the "Ride of The Valkyries."
     
  13. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Well, I assumed you didn't.

    Of course, Hitler (may his name and memory be blotted out) was right about the greatness of Anton Bruckner. Nothing else, ever, but Bruckner, yeah.

    Stalin (may his, etc.) loved cowboy movies, too. Now that I don't get.

    I never could see why people thought Bruckner was inferior to Wagner. I bought a copy of Otto Klemperer's recording of the 9th symphony when I was a kid in high school. I'd never heard Bruckner before. Then about a week later somebody in the high school library found the Bruno Walter recording of the Te Deum and made me listen to it--unaware that I had just heard the 9th for the first time. I wish EMI would reissue the Klemperer Bruckner 9th. Sony has reissued the Walter Bruckner Te Deum. Two of the greatest recordings I've ever heard.
     
  14. Rob Coates

    Rob Coates New Member

    I think I could learn a lot from you re. classical music. I have to confess my relative ignorance of the genre having been raised on a steady diet of country and bluegrass, rock, and pop. As I get older however, I find my ears yearning for a more varied musical diet.
     
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Who was it that said "Wagner's music isn't as bad as it sounds"?
     
  16. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Mark Twain
     
  17. stock

    stock New Member

    nice article. thanks.
     
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Rumpole also compared The Ring to "a long firm fraud tried through an interpreter."
     
  19. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Now Bruckner was a numeromaniac (my term; I don't know what a psychiatrist would call it). He counted everything obsessively: how many times he went to Mass, how many cups of coffee he drank, etc., etc.
     
  20. agingBetter

    agingBetter New Member

    Having studied classical music at the university level (violin/viola), and as a child, I fell in love with Wagner. I was never privy to his political leanings, however, and I was a passionate fan.

    I do listen to Wagner with guilt, however. I always think of the kind of person he must have been...

    ...but because I learned to love him before I knew, I am still moved to tears by his music.
     

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