Do some military recruiters lie? Did Seth get a job with the CIA or FBI? Read here.

Perhaps these articles can provide some different viewpoints and information concerning military service for some young people.


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http://www.counterpunch.org/weill05222004.html

"An Interview with Sue Niederer
Her Son Was Told by the Recruiter He Wouldn't See Combat; Now He's Dead
By ELIZABETH WEILL-GREENBERG

Seth, 24, was in debt after he graduated from Rutgers University in 2002. He joined the army for money and skills that, he was told, would help land him a job with the CIA or FBI -- his dream jobs. "Not for patriotism," said his mother, Sue Niederer, who is now an anti-war activist. She advised her son to get the recruiter's promises in writing. When Seth asked, the recruiter told him, "Your mother wears your pants for you?" "

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http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3185596,00.html

"GIs claim threat by Army
Soldiers say they were told to re-enlist or face deployment to Iraq"

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http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter.htm

"As I was saying, while a majority of military recruiters are hard-working, honest, and dedicated, there are some (and I emphasize some) recruiters who are tempted to bend the truth, and/or downright lie, and/or blatantly cheat in order to sign up a recruit. It happens often enough where we've all heard "horror stories" about military recruiters. So, why do some recruiters do this?"
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http://www.veteransforpeace.org/deceptioninrecruiting.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/white01062003.html

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_1502.shtml

"Recruiters have every incentive to be dishonest.

Recruiters now have even more access to the young minds of America. The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 and the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2002 require every high school receiving federal education funds to hand over the names, addresses, and phone numbers of every junior and senior to local recruiters upon request.[iv]

As long as the fate of the majority of Americans is distinct from those that serve in the military, I guess anything, including deceptive measures in recruiting, goes."
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http://www.objector.org/conscription/draft-crisis.html

"Ask any recent veteran whether recruiters lie."
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http://www.mikenew.com/index.shtml

http://www.mikenew.com/faq.html#join

"What should I tell my son, currently in the Army, about serving under the United Nations?

What should we tell our children (even after they become adults) about corruption and illegality in any occupation? Whether they work in a bank, for a lawyer, in the field of medicine, or as used car dealers, I guarantee you they will be told to do something that is illegal or unethical, sooner or later. The real question is, "Have you trained your son (or daughter) to say 'NO!' to both corruption and to peer pressure?" If not, what are you waiting on? "
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http://fox5atlanta.com/iteam/gilies.html


"Former Lt. Carl Nyberg, who investigated recruiting abuses in Chicago, says: "The corruption is so thoroughly institutionalized in recruiting, it would take congressional hearings just to make a dent in cleaning things up." "
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http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/7838

"Chaffin: Wait, so if they’re not using patriotism to get people in, then what are they using?

Teacher: Cash. The cash that can be made. Traveling. I'll give you a quote, the Navy recruiter said, "Believe it or not, my favorite place in the world is Mexico. They have lots of good-looking women and lots of beer." It’s a small crime to go into classrooms using that as a selling point. If you were to ask a professional athlete, if you were to call Chris Webber or Kobe Bryant into the class, the last thing they would do is talk about the joys of alcohol. "
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Even though I am former Navy, I am very relucant to advise my 15 year old to consider the service after HS. Furthermore, I have advised him not to speak to recruiters nor will I allow a recruiter to come to my home. When he turns 18, he can decide for himself if that is what he wishes to do. My son is lucky, his mom and I have saved enough to send him to college so he doesn't have to join the service merely to pay to further his education.

My son and I share a joke with another - when Jenna and Babs join, both of us will be the first down at the recuiters office. Until that day, to serve under a a warhawk President and his Chickenhawk counterpoint ain't going to happen.

Recruiters have a tough job to do - and I have seen some do an admirable job without deception, I have also encountered some who would lie to their priest to get the enlistee. Sad, isn't it?

 

1. There's a reason they are referred to as "lying a-- recruiters."

2. Anyone who knows they are joining the "ARMED FORCES" and seriously believes that they are somehow exempt from going into harm's way is probably too dim to pass the AFQT in the first place.

 

Do they lie?

Yes!

 

I agree 100%. I joined for the educational benefits. However, in retrospect, that was a silly reason. The purpose of the military is to protect the country - period. Everything else is secondary.

You would be surprised how low of an ASVAB score that you can receive and still get in. I worked with quite a few before they started to crack down on drug use. (I am surmising that an AFQT is the same thing as an ASVAB).

 

Hello. Now, I don't agree with most points made in this commentary at worldnetdaily, however, it is my opinion that young men and women considering the military, can benefit from other viewpoints.

And please don't think that I am posting these for political reasons. I am not. I am liberty minded, and do not support any political party.

I was young and naive once too, and I just want to try and help provide information to help people.

The tribute below is from the David Hackworth website (which I heartily recommend as reading for any potential military recruit.) and expresses my sentiments.

"A Tribute To All Who Served
You were there, and you were bloodied. Our world, outside the band of brothers who served, has never seen what we were fighting against and know what we were fighting for. The journalist, college students, and peace activists never realised the damage they were doing, or that all of them had freedoms because of what warriors, who paid the price, did to protect them. And you/we felt the defense of freedom, our domestic tranquility, and our way of life here in America was worthy of our fight. If you are a Veteran who served, all I can say is "Welcome Home" and "Semper Fi" you are worthy of our nation's support! After having been there, your world was never the same again!!"

I guess some of what bothers me, is that we have some recruiters stressing educational and civillian job prospects after service, and because of that, some young military recruits do not realise that the purpose of a military should be to fight.

I really like Hackworth's article, "The March of the Porcelain Soldiers" and I hope that others will consider reading it.

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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40589

"For some reason, the U.S. military are now viewed as icons of American virtue. They've been transformed in the public eye from the drugged-up, psycho baby-killers they were alleged to be during the Vietnam era, to sincere and bright-eyed paragons of youth, so sincere they could be cast in one of those old Soviet socialist realism posters. Of course, neither view is accurate, but what's interesting is how perceptions change while the actual reality remains fairly constant. "

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http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~2414174,00.html

"Military sexual assaults on men swept under rug"

"When I was a little kid, all I wanted to do was go into the military, you know, like a little Rambo," said Partridge, stubbing out his cigarette. "But it's not like they show in the posters. It's not like that at all."

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http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/lorentz1.html

"Before I begin, let me state that I am a soldier currently deployed in Iraq, I am not an armchair quarterback. Nor am I some politically idealistic and naïve young soldier, I am an old and seasoned Non-Commissioned Officer with nearly 20 years under my belt."

"I have come to the conclusion that we cannot win here for a number of reasons. Ideology and idealism will never trump history and reality."

(I posted this because some recruiters might tell young folks that
we are winning in Iraq. Whatever "winning" means.)
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http://www.hackworth.com/

"Army Recruiting In Trouble?
"We the recruiters who beat the streets for the Army are struggling very hard, especialy the Reserve and Guard. The senior army leadership continues to openly deny this but I'm hear to tell you otherwise. I've been recruiting for years now and it's never been worse" -- OLD SERGEANT"

http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html

"Nearly 10 percent of the trainees at Jackson are single parents, 4 percent male, 6 percent female. But what happens when they get to their units and say, "Reporting for duty, First Sergeant. Where's my quarters, where's the day care center? I'm gonna need Food stamps to supplement my pay, and, uh, I won't be able to deploy to Bosnia because my mom's sick of taking care of my kid?"

"The bottom line is the big bucks, the college money, the job training, all the rest of the enticements--they draw, but they scramble a soldier's motivation.

If you don't get off the bus at the Reception Battalion because your dream, however adolescent, is to be a warrior, or your moral vision, however retro, includes the duty to fight for your country, as soldier material you're starting two bricks shy of a load."

 

When I first joined in 1990, my recruiter was completely honest with me. He was honest about basic training, AIT, and what to expect during drills.

The second time I enlisted (2001), the recruited did not try to lie to me.

 

As a veteran of the US Navy ( 1980-1986, USS Guardfish, Good Conduct & Expeditionary medals ), I take great offense at people who sign up for the service and then complain when they are required to do what their country asks them to do.

Although I understand the grief that Sue Niederer feels due to the loss of her son Seth, I have no sympathy for her. Seth freely joined the military. The fact that greed was his motivation doesn't excuse him from his responsibilities of serving his country - which does include the possiblity of being placed in harm's way. "I didn't join the military to fight at the request of my country" is a weak argument at best.

Recruiters, like all other walks of life, have honest, not so honest, and every shade in-between people. Recruiters are required to meet enlistment quotas and can suffer negative consequences if they don't make their numbers. Some do outright lie to get someone to enlist. In that event, the recruiter should undergo some form of disciplinary action. Sue Niederer should gather her documentation and present her case to the appropriate authorities. Her mis-guided rage in the form of anti-war activism smacks of self-interest and self-pity on her part.

Rick

 

Jacques,

Another post that shows your true colors. In all the time you spent researching this post you didn't come up with one positive story? I have 100's of them I'd be happy to share with you if you're so inclined to listen. Let me know.

There are honest people and there are dishonest people in every walk of life. Why you think Military Recruiting would be different is beyond me. As I've stated before I'm currently an Active Duty Navy Recruiting Supervisor and I do this for a living so I obviously hold strong feelings on this subject.

Most young people come to me looking to take advantage of the opportunities available to them when they sign up to serve their country. They all ask, "what can you offer me?" not, "what can I offer my country?" as I feel it should be. Any good Recruiter will do his/her best to sell the features of their service and show the applicant how those features will benefit them. We are trained salesmen and women. We are taught to honestly depict life in the Military and show how their service can benefit them in the future. Of course we do not spend hours explaining all the mundane tasks that they will be required to perform, the possibility of being killed in combat, the long hours that will be spent working, etc. We are normally limited to an hour or so during the interview to convey how serving in the military will benefit them. Is this lying? No, it's selling our product. I personally always throw in a comment about how "all these opportunities don't come without a cost and that cost is going to be hard work on your part" but I normally leave it at that unless I'm asked additional questions. I think most salesmen and women perform like this, not just military recruiters.

Selling our service does not make us liars. Now, if we are asked a question such as "will I have to serve in combat?" and we answer anything other then "this is the military, that's our job so it is possible that you may have to serve in combat someday" then that person would be lying. However, in my many years of Recruiting I honestly can't think of one time when I was ever asked that question. Most people are not naive enough to be sitting with a Military Recruiter and not know they may have to serve in combat if they join the military. I have been asked, "will I have to be on the front lines with a machine gun?" and I tell them that we have very few jobs in the Navy that require that, most of our jobs are on ships at sea. Which is the honest truth.

Why do the Military Recruiters take all the blame? What about the responsibility for ones self or the responsibility of parents to help their kids make important decisions? I find it amazing that 95% of the kids I deal with are sitting in my office all by themselves. Mom and Dad are nowhere to be found. I know if my son or daughter ever sits down with a Military Recruiter, or a College Recruiter for that matter, I'll be right there-by-their side to help them make their first major decision in life. Just as I will be by their side when they purchase their first car, house or whatever else they may need guidance on. That's our job as parents. If I as a parent allow my child to join the military thinking that they will never have to serve in combat then shame on me, I can't hold the Recruiter responsible regardless of what he/she said.

I have many Recruiters that work for me and we receive letters every day from those we enlist in the Navy (that are in Recruit Training) thanking us for being honest and helping them prepare for life in the Navy. I have seen very few cases first hand of young people or parents who think they were lied to. It is my educated belief that it only takes a couple bad apples to give the rest of us that are working hard to help young people a bad name.

I don't think your post spreading fear of Military Recruiters is helping anyone Jacques. Should young people seek guidance from someone they trust before making a major decision? Of course they should. But it is unfair to blame the Recruiter because the parents didn't have the time or desire to help their kids get started on the right foot in life. I would be willing to bet most of the horror stories you posted of a few bad Recruiters could have been avoided had a parent taken the time to accompany their child on the interview with the Recruiter.

 

Ray, I don't have anything against you. Why are you trying to pick a fight with me? What true colours are you referring to, sir?

I think perhaps you didn't read my posts carefully or the links provided. I did not write anything at all stating that all recruiters were liars.

"A Tribute To All Who Served"

"You were there, and you were bloodied. Our world, outside the band of brothers who served, has never seen what we were fighting against and know what we were fighting for. The journalist, college students, and peace activists never realised the damage they were doing, or that all of them had freedoms because of what warriors, who paid the price, did to protect them. And you/we felt the defense of freedom, our domestic tranquility, and our way of life here in America was worthy of our fight. If you are a Veteran who served, all I can say is "Welcome Home" and "Semper Fi" you are worthy of our nation's support! After having been there, your world was never the same again!!"

(not negative to me)

That's your opinion that I provided nothing positive in any of my posts. Certainly the previous thread to which you refer to had many positive points and helpful information.

And as for this thread, what is the title sir? Under the rules of this off topic forum, I can post off-topic subjects that are not related to distance education.

However, I would argue that since education is a major selling point with most recruiters, that un-truths told by some, and my links and subject line included the word some, recruiters, is relevent to this forum.

Ray, not that it's any of your business, but I served in the French Foreign Legion for 5 years, and with the Georgia State Patrol for almost 3 years. And I have personal experiences with the US Military.

Also, under the rules of posting, I cannot post all of the information at the links provided. So, obviously, I just cut and pasted snipets of information from the sites, and I tried to pick ones that pertained to my subject line.

Col. Hackworth's site certainly has great and positive information, in my opinion, and others, concerning military service. Ray, have you checked the site out?

Ray, you're obviously trying to start stuff with me by portraying me as a hate-filled troll. I also believe that you are trying to imply that I am not a patriot, because of my posts. It seems to me that you are trying to link this thread and the earlier, "How to earn degree while in Navy" thread, and come to some kind of inappropriate conclusion about me, sir.

Ray, just because I am liberty minded and freedom loving and wish that others could be, that does not make me a troll, hate-filled, or un-American (whatever that means). I am not into the false pardigms of left vs. right, democrat vs. republican. I am for liberty!

And information is power!

Yes sir, I know that you did not explicitly write any of this, but it is obviously implied by your post of "true-colours", and of course, now, you can write, "I don't know what Jacques is writing about. He is so offensive and is so belliegerent."

Your criticism of me today comes from the post you are referring to as:
How to earn degree while in Navy?

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15314

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15314&pagenumber=2

Ray, if you will go back, you will see what positive statements that I made on how to help the young man. The posts are there for anyone to compare and contrast how sincere and helpful that I tried to be.

In fact Ray, I did not see you suggest any of the information that I did, such as the simple preparation that the young man read the BlueJacket's Manual before enlistment. Now Ray, how is that post negative on my part? How are you to know my sincerity in trying to help that young man?

Furthermore, there are 2 reasons why I suggested that the young man from the earlier thread that you referenced could possibly try and get a higher score. One was that so that the young man could consider the Navy's Nuclear Program(how is that negative?), and the second was so that the parent could perhaps persuade the young man to study some more for the ASVAB, as an excuse to perhaps give the young man time to consider other opportunites within the military, particulary officer programs. In that thread, I was trying to help both the parent and the son, without offending the parent.

However, out of respect for the parent, I obviously did not make my reasons known in that thread. That is why I did not come right out and express my reasoning for studying and re-taking the ASVAB.

Ray, why do you feel that I must provide my life's history for you in order, for me to post here? Is this your forum? Are you a moderator sir?

Ray, I think that perhaps to write more correctly, you should not assume, just because I post a link, that I am expousing the viewpoints of the author(s) of any particular link, unless I clearly write that.

And Ray, would you call this negative? "As I was saying, while a majority of military recruiters are hard-working, honest, and dedicated," Ray, what is the matter with my posting the link,
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter.htm ?

I believe that site has much information that could possibly help people. What's negative about that site, sir?

And back to the Seth that was mentioned in this thread, his mother is being invesitigated by the Secret Service now.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/september2004/220904reviewscomments.htm

But the reason that I posted Seth's account from his mother, was that because so many young people, in this day and age of Soldier of Fortune 2, and ShellShock: Nam'67, and other computer and video games, and the glamorous views of the military and the CIA in some movies and television, are naive to real-world military situations and tend to glamourise certain things.

And it's certainly not uncommon for some young people to want jobs with the CIA, for instance, after military service. So, I was just providing the link. Ray, I never stated that those viewpoints expressed by Seth's mother were the gospel truth. I merely provided a link, with the hope that others can use their own intelligience to open their own minds.

And sir, the Mike New site, (and I posted that snipet), implores parents to take responsibility for their children.

Ray, instead of addressing the author's and websites mentioned, you are trying to imply that I am.........well, whatever, because you didn't write it, and whatever I write, you will just say, "I didn't write that. I didn't call Jacques that." True Ray, but your snide implications did not go unnoticed.

Ray, it is my opinion that you have hostility towards me. May I please recommend the movie "Harvey", starring Jimmy Stewart, to you sir? Because being "pleasant" is really a great way of life.

Ray, I have not posted any of this in anger or hate, so may I please ask why you keep wanting to make this personal? It's one thing as a recruiter, a sailor, and a citizen to make remarks, and comments about this post, but it is another thing to make snide comments about me.

Ray, I think that it would be great for you to post all of the positive experiences concerning the military, recruitment, et al, here for others to learn from.

I just want to know why you are trying to kill the messenger, instead of just posting some positive experiences that you and others have had? Why can't we exchange information here and let others learn?

Certainly other members have posted their comments that their recruiters did not lie to them. I am glad to see posts like that. I did not criticise them, Ray. And I noticed that you did not either. Therefore, it is clear that your post is really a personal attack against me, and of course, you can claim that it is not.

So, let's both stop this silliness Ray, and get back to trying to help folks. It's a waste of your time, and a waste of my time, sir, for us to do this. It's one thing for members here to make posts with facts and/or opinions, and it's another thing entirely to personally criticise other members.

Other members can re-read my other posts, and make their own opinions as to what "true-colours" you are referring to, Ray.

Ray, I have a great idea. Why don't you ask some potentional and new recruits to help you make a thread here, pertaining to useful tips and information, and personal stories about how to suceed and thrive in the US Navy. In fact, you could write a book on this, and either self-publish, or have a page on the internet selling your book yourself. (And of course, there are legal issues with your active duty status, but it's just an idea. You and others can write this book if you really want to.)

I think that the book would be a great seller and a terrific resource. And, there are many helpful people here at this forum that would assist you in this endeavour. And they would help you only for a few lines of credit in the book.

Ray, I have found most of the members of this forum to be so very sincere and helpful to others. So, ask them for help with your new book, because it can really help potential and new Navy recruits.

And then Ray, instead of this silliness between you and me, the focus would be on helping new Navy recruits. What do you
think? I predict an Amazon best-seller for your Ray.

I really do hope that you will write a thread like this, which can be the basis for a book later. I am looking forward to it, Ray. Please take care.

 

Jacques,

I was commenting on your post that opened this thread, not your later attempt to take some of the sting out of your original post. You're more foolish then I originally thought if you're trying to tell me that there was anything positive in your first post? For every one Military Recruiting horror story there are thousands of positive stories yet all you found were negative links to post. I do not think your original post is representative of today's Military Recruiting environment and I don't think your post did anything other then cast a bad light on Military Recruiters.

I have nothing against you Jacques other then I feel you are giving poor advice to those seeking to enter the military. The Recruiter is their only friend during the Recruiting process and the one looking out for their best interest (the Recruiters future success in his assigned market depends on him keeping his Recruits happy) and I don't think making kids afraid of the Recruiters is the right message to send. The parents should be the sanity check in this whole process.

Anyway, I hold no hard feelings for you Jacques so there is nothing to mend between us. We're just having a civil discussion.

Relax my friend and if we ever have the chance I'd be honored to buy you a beer. That is if you can "hang" with this Chief?

 

My wife and I were both in the military and I can only tell you one recruiting horror story. It does not come form anyone we were in the Army with; it is about my nieces husband.

He signed up for the Marines and told the recruiter to get him into a good MOS. The recruiter got him into a communcation MOS and he was shipped to Iraq as soon as he was done. He was just sent back for another 18 months to finish out his term.

The horror story is stupidity. Never let someone else dictate the direction of your life!

 

Ray,

Thanks for the excellent post! You are right, kids that sign up without some kind of guidance and/or realization that combat is a possibility are being myopic.

I have two experiences with recruiters -- one Navy, one Army. When I was still in high school, I signed up for a 6 yr. tour in the Navy as an electronics technician. What I wanted was nuke school; alas, as a woman, that was closed. I had no idea what the other choices were. To be honest, I think the recruiter was filling a slot for that month -- my ASVAB scores certainly warranted a huge selection of potential jobs. Anyway, my mom co-signed, as I was 17. My father (who was a retired Naval officer) about hit the roof -- he figured that I would go nuts in that position, and all but forced me to resign (out of the delayed entry program) once I graduated high school, and sent me to college.

Well, a couple of years later, I visited the Army recruiter. I found the experience to be quite different. He spent days walking me through different positions, and when he found out that I was interested, arranged for me to take the DLAB, to see if I would qualify for language school. Anyway, I spent about one month going through the recruiting process for the Army, and ended up with an excellent job in MI, with guaranteed language school.

Hmm, my point to all this rambling? Well, to begin with, neither recruiter lied to me. However, one was certainly more thorough, patient, and willing to get things right for me than the other, a situation I think exemplifies what you, Ray, describe as the ideal recruiter. I'm glad my father stepped in with regards to the Navy; he was right, I would probably have been miserable in that job. My mom didn't have any idea about the whole process, so I'm glad I got guidance from him.

Cheers,

Happy Vet Adrienne

P.S. Ray, I hope you don't take my post as a slam on Navy recruiters, or that Army are better; it was just my personal experience. Like I said, the guy didn't lie, but in retrospect, he certainly didn't provide me with all the possible opportunities that I could have picked from for a job, either.

 

My wife, a retired HMC (SW) in the Navy with twenty years in, always likes to point out that the military has one primary mission: to kill people and to break things as an instrument of national policy. You are either doing that directly or supporting those who do. This is made clear to you early on in your military service.

So she has little patience with people who join the military only to earn money for college, or whatever, and are then shocked and horrified when the service sends them off to kill people and to break things. And she also says that if the recruiter is promising you a particular NEC\MOS\Duty station, to get that in writing.

 

Just spoke to my wife. She remember the recruiter, SGT. Carter, introducing her to people that just got back from AIT, as a reservist, so she could get the truth regarding military life.

My wife said she spent about a month talking to the recruiter before joining and she never felt pressured. She has the greatest respect for him,

 

Adrienne,

Of course I don't take it as a slam against Navy Recruiters....there are just as many good Army Recruiters as there are in any other branch. There are also just as many bad Navy Recruiters as the others. Too bad there are not more parents like your father to step in and provide guidance to their kids to help steer them towards what they know is best for their child.

I'm glad it all worked out for you and thank you for your service to our country.