Thread on Union Disappeared?

Someone posted some accusations about Union. I asked for clarification. Now I can't find the thread. Where did it go?

 

I moved it into the Admin section until the poster could provide proof of her allegations.

Not surprisingly, she hasn't responded to my PM or e-mail.

 

That doesn't make sense, Bruce. Nor is it consistent with what occurs on this board.

Baseless allegations are made all the time around here. How many times do I ask for support for allegations, statements, opinions, etc., only to have it go unanswered? But the silence is extremely informative. And those other posts/threads aren't removed. Removing the post also removes the effect of the silence.

On the other hand, if this is a new practice, I'm looking forward to seeing a whole bunch of previously tolerated nonsense deleted. But if this is to be, perhaps a note from the moderator indicating the action has been taken would help, and prevent follow-up threads like this.

 

Bruce,

If the allegations are baseless, believe me, no one here will let them stand without adequate challenge. No reader will be confused.

Plus, Rich is right.

Please restore the thread.

Thanks!

 

The original poster made statements that were proven to be absolutely false. This differs from the numerous vague statements or opinions that can't be verified....something like "XYZ College sucks because <fill in the blank>".

I withdrew the Union thread and gave the original poster an opportunity to provide proof. So far, she has chosen to ignore my PM and e-mail attempts to contact her.

If I don't hear from her by the end of today, I'll reinstate the thread with a note from me that I requested proof of her charges, and that she ignored me.

 

Sounds like a plan.

I know it's hard sometimes when these knuckleheads post things so outrageous that they seem to just go beyond the pale. And when they're personally defamatory or just plain unnecessarily harmful or hurtful, I'm the first to scream "delete this, please."

But in this case, I think the thread-starter should be taken to task right there in the thread for all to see -- as it seems like Rich is fixin' to do (and to which I'm looking forward, I should add).

All I know is this: I'd rather have situations like this than no moderation at all (or, maybe worse, poor moderation... as we saw in one other forum which shall remain nameless but whose initials were CollegeHints.com (ooh... did I accidentally blurt out its name?). I'll take this sort of thing over the crap that was going on over there any day-o'-the-week!

Good reconsider, Bruce. Thanks!

 

I never saw the original post, so I don't know what its content was.

But if this was just another in the seemingly never-ending attempts to embarass Rich Douglas and to ignite yet another flame thread, then I'd say that it's best left suppressed.

Besides, it's not fair to the Union Institute and University to let it be subject to an endless succession of attacks and slanders just because a Degreeinfo participant happened to graduate from it.

 

It never mentioned me.

The original post alleged that Union has made statements recently that it never, ever awarded Ph.D.'s in any other field than Interdisciplinary Studies. Of course, Levicoff says he earned his degree in his stated field, while I earned my Ph.D. in Interdisciplinary Studies with a concentration in my field. Obviously, I believe Steve, having been a Union learner long before him, but having graduated well after him.

One reason not to believe such a thing is that Union several years ago created a separate school of psychology in order to develop criteria for--and to justify--its existing practice of awarding doctorates in psychology.

When I entered Union initially, people earned degrees awarded in their particular fields of study. It wasn't until later that it was split between psychology and interdisciplinary studies. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. In fact, I got my current position because of the interdisciplinarity of my degree, not in spite of it! Besides, it is common for Union graduates to list their degrees as having been earned in their area of concentration, as thus:

Ph.D., Higher Education
Union Institute and University

I find the school's new name to be far more cumbersome than this other issue. I like the old names--The Union Institute and The Union Graduate School--part of UECU. UECU was also cumbersome. In fact, graduates of the UI&U Ph.D. program are also graduates of Union Graduate School. Maybe that's the way to go....no matter what, I've got a Union Ph.D. and that's pretty cool.

I didn't find this kind of statement to be particularly inflammatory. In fact, I thought it might be plausible, which is why I asked for the source. If it was an attempt to defame Union, it was a lame attempt.

Finally, I don't mind the removal, if it's done with an explanation, but I'd much rather see the thread locked but viewable. I think thread removal should be limited to those threads containing posts that could be considered actionable. Degreeinfo should cover itself legally, and be aggressive about that.

 

Yeah, except now it's all goofed-up because your response to the thread-starting post in that thread is now in this thread instead. Your summary of what that thread alleged, and your response thereto, probably accomplishes whatever good would have come from restoring it to public viewability and then allowing you to have at it. This thread, having matured to its present state, might be sufficient. Therefore, I am now officially backpeddling on my request that that thread be restored -- that is, unless you're willing to get into that thread and basically repeat yourself for posterity. We wouldn't want the accusation to go unchallenged within the thread where it's made and, instead, only challenged here, would we?

Of course, Bruce could always restore that thread and then post in it a link to this thread and then lock that thread.

Oy. I need coffee.

 

Hello Friends,

I can assure you there is nothing false in my statement above. A few clarifications..

First-- I do not know or care who Richard Douglass is or why all those weird ad hominem posts about him and Union Institute seem to come up constantly and thus have absolutely no "ulterior motive" related to attacking him.

I find it really inappropriate that the moderator assumed this about someone they do not know at all, eliminated my thread (whose alterior motive was to document the reality of people having earned a variety of PhD degrees from union institute since 1971.

Second, Part of the confusion is a wording issue. The alleged "proof" tht what I have said is not the case points to places on the website where student degrees are mentioned as

"A PhD with a concentration in X"

This is NOT " PHD IN X" which means a DOCTORATE IN a specific field.

The formula "Union PhD with a concentration in X" is a compromise reached between Union Institiute and the OBR for students who believe they were promised some other degree and who matriculated prior to 2002.

In 2002 the ONLY phD is PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies with a concentration in X"


I have been deeply involved in fighting for some learners at Union Institute who have Learning Agreements and Program Summaries and letters confirming candidacy for a PhD in Field X.
They are being denied this degree.

Initally Union claimed the denial was a result of the Ohio Board of Regents insistingthey can only grant the one interdisciplinary PhD ..for those before 2002 it could be called " The Union PHD with a concentration in X"

At some point they started changing this. I heard this first from Jack Connell of the Ohio Board of Regents and Roger Appelson of the NCA (Accrediting commission) who said Union has represented to them that they only hve EVER granted a single interdisciplinary PHD.


It is odd with all the flaming around here that someone actually involved in a particular struggle is being blocked from posting when I so clearly did not..and never would make an adhominem attack on anyone.

Best
Rev Renee

 

Rich, and anyone who would like a better sense of what is going on.

As an Alum you would be welcome to come to the new Union Open Forum which began after learner council folks kicked some students out for the OPPOSITE REASON the thread was closed

Laughs

Union Institute OPen Forum

 

Unfortunately, what Rev Renee is saying is all too true. I know, because I am one of the learners who is not getting the degree for which I enrolled at Union.

The best anyone graduating now from Union can expect to get is "the Union Institute & University PhD with a concentration in [add your field here]." That is a lot different from a "PhD in [your field]," which means that you have the highest degree in your field.

The "best" wording above is a compromise designed for longer-term learners; newer learners will be getting a "PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies [the field] with a concentration in [whatever you thought your field was]." What this title means is that one has the highest degree in the field of Interdisciplinary Studies, whatever that might be; that, in fact, one has majored in Interdisciplinary Studies.

I didn't major in Interdisciplinary Studies, and no one at Union ever mentioned that this is the degree Union graduates would get.

But more importantly, now Union is saying that this is the only degree any Union graduate has ever gotten--no matter what it might say on the front page of their dissertation, no matter what they think they might have gotten. It's an odd situation, since there are 5,000+ Union graduates who believe they have gotten the highest degree in their fields (not to mention a lot of faculty who believed they helped learners get those degrees).

With respect to School of Professional Psychology mentioned above: a learner on whose committee I served as a peer, who believed she was getting a PhD in Clinical Psychology just got a Union Institute PhD with a concentration in Clinical Psychology. She got the "good" compromise degree. She didn't come for that degree and she isn't sure that it will enable her (a) to continue teaching in the Clinical Psych department at her school or (b) get licensed as a clinical psychologist.

Once again--I wish all of this were not happening, but unfortunately it is.

Rev Sedgwick

 

Part of the irony is both Rev Sedgwick and I were big supporters of Union Institute.

I encouraged her to go there because I have a great respect for Dr Elizabeth Minnich who is in my field (philosophy) and I had an instructor as an undergraduate who received her PhD from Union, worked with another who was an adjunct for some REALLY BRIGHT students.

And because I know Rev Sedgwick would have had one hell of a time dealing with the silly politics of a traditionl university like the one I attended (Penn State)

Union was, in my mind a place where people who were older, more advanced in their life and wanted to do research in a way that was really integrated into their life and work could go unhindered by the usual politics of the PhD.

It has been awful to watch what is happening there, how they are treating current students and now this claim about degrees UGH!

 

As sorry as I am that all this hooha is happening at Union; and as sorry as I am that when Rev Renee posted about it, in DesElms' words, ". . . even people around here who normally don't agree assailed you in concert," the fact that all of you leapt to the conclusion that Rev Renee's statements had to be false is actually very helpful.

It has been SO crazy-making to know that Union has granted thousands of degrees in probably dozens of fields in the last 30 years, and then to be told that, in fact, the only degree ever conferred was in Interdisciplinary Studies. That means that people who are now teaching at colleges and universities because they believed they had a degree in their field don't really have that degree?

And part of the crazy-makingness is that when you ask anyone in the Union administration a direct question you get one of two basic responses:

1. No response--just . . . nothing.

2. Equivocation. "Anyone who came to Union always knew`they were coming for an interdisciplinary degree. 'Well, sure--but that's not the same as a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies, not by a long shot.

And the website is being changed. People whose degrees just a few days ago were listed as "PhD in [field]" are now being shown as "PhD with a concentration in [field]."

In short, history is being rewritten, and it's hurting a good many learners.

Rev Sedgwick

 

Rich:

You say:
One reason not to believe such a thing is that Union several years ago created a separate school of psychology in order to develop criteria for--and to justify--its existing practice of awarding doctorates in psychology.>>

The psychology issue is a big one because right now they are only allowed to give the PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies with a concentration in Clinical Psychology.

The NCA is concerned that the slipping these degree under the Interdisciplinary Studies title which they (NCA) see as only relevant to arts and sciences.

Union is working to get a Psych D approved because doing it under the general title is not acceptible to the accreditors. To get it approved they have to show they have the faculty and resources to support that degree.

Really this has nothing to do with the question of whether Union now claims to only ever have given a single Interdisciplinary PhD

Bruce..clearly this discussion should be allowed. You were mistaken here

 

Relevant and Revsedgwick, just reading this makes my head hurt. If this is the case, I can see your frustration. I'm trying to understand this so I have a couple questions for you two.

Have you taken, say, a survey from potential employers, especially academia, asking for their opinion on whether or not the wording makes an overall difference in hiring??

If it does, I can definitely see why you two (and others) are raising hell. But if it doesn't, why pursue this and potentially damage the schools reputation and consequently your own degree that you just earned?

Whether we like it or not, a degree's value is, to a certain point, determined by the reputation of the school where it is conferred.

 

tmartca asks, "Have you taken, say, a survey from potential employers, especially academia, asking for their opinion on whether or not the wording makes an overall difference in hiring??"

No, neither of us has done that. However, in order to teach graduate school, one has to have the highest degree in one's field. The PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies means that one has the highest degree in that field, which would clearly mean that one could teach Interdisciplinary Studies. I'm not sure such a field exists.

The Union PhD with a concentration in a field is a little better but only because it's vague. So vague, in fact, that if a potential employer wanted to find out what such a degree is, he or she might call the accreditation folks at NCA to ask. According to the guy with whom we've been talking, when he gets such a call he is required to say, "Union Institute has authority to grant only one degree: the PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies."

You can see, then, that the title matters a lot. If I claim to have a PhD in Religious Studies, a potential employer who doesn't know much about Union calls the NCA, and the NCA guy can say, "Yes, that's a valid degree," then I, the employer, and Union are all in a much better situation.

Rev Sedgwick

 

I would be glad to address that it makes my head hurt as well.


What is really interesting is that it appears Bruce has eliminated my membership..Thus the different name which I assume will also disappear.

If you read my posts you will see nothing inappropriate nothing attacking even the posters here who seem to thrive on such attacks.

All I have done beyond what you can see in this thread (and responding to one flamer rathwer more kindly than he deserved ;-)) was to write to two people by private message.

I wrote to Bruce and to Rich. I provided each with a long email from a past Union Dean and long term faculty member which clarifies the issues pretty well.

I did tell Bruce that assuming I was here to attack Rich or some ulterior motive was inappropriate..and I stand by that.

A mature moderator should be able to handle such a comment.

One of two things is likely here

1. It was an error I am not banned all this post is not needed.
However that seems rather unlikely does it not?

2. Someone here is really afraid that informatin ebing shared will harm Union Institute and its reputation

Well, it would and frankly should. This forum proudly announces how it "exposes" degree mills.

Surely a college which has bestowed degrees for 30 years when licensed only for a single degree is one readers should be VERY careful about. However much I love the history of Union Institute
this is a serious matter.

If it was not as serious no one would need to eliminate my posts

I hope to learn it was just a oops.

I expect instead to that this user id will be banned.
If so, as a reader I would have to wonder what the agenda and connection of those running this board is with that institutions leaders or those from an involved agency.

*shakes head* Its a shame. I thought this place was about distance education in a real and open way.

Rev Renee

 

I, too, hope that Rev Renee's original username being denied access to these forums is an error or a technical glitch.

What both of us have found, however, is that there is some big hot button around this issue--a hot button that apparently is more important than the fact that a lot of learners are being harmed by what is happening right now at Union.

Rich and Bruce asked Rev Renee to provide proof that her statements were accurate; she did that; now her username has been denied access. But the fact is that there is proof, I'm sorry to say, and I guess that scares people.

Rev Renee's posts have been moderate in tone, accurate as to facts, unresponsive to flames, and generally helpful. The attack on her credibility that was apparently based on her faith is allowed to stay, as is the attacker; but seemingly she is not.

Hmmm . . .

Rev Sedgwick

 

And of course the result is to distract all attention from the issue being discussed.

Union Institute IS in BIG Trouble at this point.

Perhaps for some the only way to protect it seems to be to hide the truth.

But school cannot grant degrees for 30 years and represent that they have ever only granted one....and expect NO public talk, No Questions No Complaints

From the letter I sent to both Rich and to Bruce it is clear that many on the faculty had no clue this was happening. From my conversations with board members they too had no idea


This sort of thing thrives on secrecy and obfuscation -- but then when the California Alum goes to the Psychology board thinking they will qualify as having a degree in psychology from an accredited school and is denied enterance to the exam (Yes this has happened and not just once or in one state) because she does not hold a doctorate in PSYCHOLOGY but only a "Phd with a concentration in psychology" which they have no idea WHAT it is....and when they call the NCA and hear ..well Union can only grant degrees in interdisciplinary studies with a certain concentration....

What happens to that student is no less bad than what happens to anyone from the worst degree mill!!

So Bruce... is this a misunderstanding..or are you trying to have the discussion die by eliminating me