Liberty University & Jerry Falwell...

Wasn't it Liberty University's president that said, just two days after 9/11:

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

I believe this was said in response to the attack by Islamic enemies of the US, and the entire Western world, upon the world trade center complex and the Pentagon. Like it was OUR own fault, because we are so damned "evil".....

Please.

Students who are considering Liberty University, consider whether you wish to be part of this horrid throwback to medieval times and support this type of political garbage that emanates from your "spiritual" leader, Jerry Falwell.

 

Duh! - maybe

Good Old Testament stuff. The ancient Jews thought tragedy was related directly to sin.

Why would anyone who didn't share many of Falwell's beliefs want to attend Liberty?

 

Carl,

As I said in another post, Falwell is an idiot. That being said, yes, we ARE evil. By nature, humans are evil. Even if you were to put religion aside and look at the history of humanity from a secular, sociological perspective, you would have to deduce that humans are evil. We are a menace to nature, to one another, and to the world as a whole.

Pug

 

Pug - If you want to believe this I won't argue with you. You are entitled to your own opinion. I think, however, that you'll have to concede that there are many many people across the world, including scholars and theologians of all stripes, who believe otherwise. A simple google search will prove my point.
Jack

 

The unpleasant truth is, it was standard Jewish "theology" to believe that all the awful things that happened were the result of failure to live up to the Law. You find this even in Talmud. Some pious fools still teach this nonsense (stronger epithet intended).

However, the notion was almost totally destroyed by the shoah. Too many people murdered at random, whole communities extinguished...it just CAN'T have been the will of God. How to make sense of this hideous thing is a major issue in Jewish thought today.

 

Pugbelly is right, it is the sin nature in all of us that we have done the evil that has been done in this world, thoughout history!!

What else could explain it?

Rich Hartel

A.A. in Theological Studies, Trinity College of the Bible (present)

 

You know, I think that I may be stepping into dangerous waters here, but I may as well give my 2 cents.

First off, let me just stat for the record that I am an atheist. This does not mean I live my life with a "who cares" or "it doesn't matter attitude' doing whatever the heck I want. I still have respect for the laws of men and I obey them and stay within the limits of humanity and basic dignity. I just do so because of respect I have for my fellow men (and women) not because I have a fear of God (not that this is what dictates religious people).

Additionally, I do not hate people of faith and I believe firmly that everyone has a right to believe whatever they would like as long as they don't feel a need to "save" me or get me to convert.

With that being said, I would just like to say that I do agree that Mr. Falwell is an insensitive ruthless person who puts forth his own agenda and ideology to get his point across. I think that to say that all of these different groups "caused" 9-11 and the trouble we have today simply because they had a different view than himself is not only hurtful, but irresponsible as well. It sends a bad message to people of faith and creates less tolerance of different beliefs, something that I think goes against basic Judeo-Christian values and beliefs.

I have my opinions about faith being to intertwined with education (i.e. Bob Jones University) and politics, and Liberty University's leader sometimes does both. I think that Liberty University has a good educational system and produces good degrees and educates its people. It's Falwell who appears on Fox News and makes crazy statements like this that hurt the reputability of the institution. With that being said, I don't think you should necessarily rule out Liberty University as a good school, but you should also be willing to deal with Jerry Falwell as its representative.

 

I missed the part of Judeo-Christian values expressing tolerance. As a practical aspect of living in a democratic society tolerance is a necessity but if there is a theological basis for tolerance it is certainly out-weighed by a pretty strict set of rules. Christianity was not created as a pick and choose religion. People have made it so.

 

That kind of passion makes me suspect that there are those on the left that really love Jerry Falwell. They love Falwell in the same way that so many conservative Christians love Satan: as a foil, a bogey man, as the dragon they slay. Their Adversary.

Whether it's religious or secular, an evangelical cause needs evil. And evil needs to wear a human face.

 

Perhaps that's one of the things that man is. Or put a better way, man is certainly capable of evil, there's no denying that.

But I'd suggest that good, certainly 'good' in the moral sense, is the work of man as well.

One may argue that all good belongs to or emanates from whatever god one chooses to believe in. But I see no reason to believe that.

Just objectively, human beings are capable of both good and evil. Both history and our personal lives provide countless examples of both.

It's interesting, and probably telling, that our gods are imagined as if they were persons, or even as fleshly incarnations. Perhaps that's what makes abstract theological goodness tangible. The divinity's personality, its humanity, seems to be an essential part of its goodness.

 

Well, I don't know Falwell beyond the public pronouncements mentioned in this forum and one other very troubling rumor. I have HEARD that his organization republished and now distributes the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as anti-Jewish an act, short of violence, as I can think of.

There are conservative christian groups who get all buddy buddy with hard right Jewish leaders, but I question whether these Jews really grasp that the intent of these christian groups is conversion, not tolerance or peaceful coexistence.

 

Ok, I knew I would ruffle someone's feathers. Look, I don't think that this is necessarily an accurate statement. I never seem to remember reading in CCD class as a child or Theology courses in college that any biblical figures ever said that people shouldn't be tolerant. I seem to remember Jesus saying that one should "turn the other cheek" in the face of adversity. Couldn't this be taken as a form a tolerance? Also, the Jews have been involved in some of the greatest tragedies of all time that involved a lack of tolerance. Isn't there a lesson here? I know that God supposedly gave Moses 10 Commandments, but none of them say to not be tolerant of other beliefs. Most biblical rhetoric state that those who follow thier god will be rewarded in the afterlife; who cares of those in other faiths?

The only religion I know that does not seem to have tolerance rhetoric is that of Islam, where Mohammed was told by Gabriel to kill all the infidels, or non-believers. I think Judeo-Christian values though differ. I could be wrong though...

I'm sure someone will try and point that out.

 

Actually, from the standpoint of intellectual debate only, I do believe that the 2nd commandment makes it fairly clear that intolerance of other faiths is expected of those who follow the one true God... The text is below:

2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

In other words, God not only says to not worship the "gods" of other faiths, but that he'll get your children, and your children's children's children if you do it, regardless of those subsequent generations' choices or decisions regarding which "god" to follow.

Somehow, this doesn't seem right to me. I know the "Christians" on this board will tell me that the word of God is inviolate, and we are sinning to attempt to rationalize it to something more humane, but *damn it* it isn't right. It is not right for a loving God to be punishing third and fourth generations of innocent people for "crimes" their ancestors did. It is not only not right, it is inconceivable, except in the literalist, twisted minds of the dogamtic religious right - of which Falwell and his little university are the prime progenitors in the USA.

 

IMO the New Testament does establish a context where tolerance is to be practiced: (1) That the NT does not, EG, advocate violence to promote its view of God seems implicit in Jesus' statement before Pilate, " IF My kingdom were of this world, THEN would My servants fight" (John 18:36). Further, discipling was to be done by teaching and baptizing, not by the sword!( Matthew 28:19) (2) Christians not only are expected, at least in general, to obey the laws of the land (1 Peter 2:13), but the leaders of the Church are expected to have a good reputation outside of the Church not just in the Church (1 Timothy 3:7).

Also, IMO, the tenet that Christians in general are more moral than nonChristians in general may be hard to evidence. Goodness or badness in the NT often has as its frame of reference not morality by the standards of society but by the expectations of the Christian God. So, Paul can opine that even the most upright Jew or Gentile yet is guilty in God's eyes (Romans 3:23). I don't think that Paul would say that the morality of the Christian necessarily by his faith is made perfect. In fact Paul himself , I take it, thinks that in him is no good thing and that he continues to do evil (Romans 7:15-23). This apparently is a common experience even among the 1st c. Church as the letters of Paul address immorality, bickering, judging, and pride going on in the several churches and regions to which he makes his remarks!

 

A traditional Jewish view is that the commandment "Ani adonai elohanu..." applies to the JEWS ONLY. Others were (and are) free to have whatever dieties they choose.

Now, that does not mean that modern Jews believe that there ARE other gods, only that the errors of the goyim do not concern us.

 

Liberty University and the Moonies???

Here's some other stuff you Liberty University sheep-to-the-slaughter people should know about your leader and his college:

"In 1994 Falwell quietly accepted $3.5 million from Korean cult messiah Sun Myung Moon as part of a larger deal to bail Liberty University out from under its horrendous debt load. Perhaps Jerry was moved by this staggering generosity. That might be the reason why Falwell publicly urged his friend President Reagan to pardon Moon's tax evasion conviction.

Jerry was widely criticized in the Christian community for lending legitimacy to Moon's organization. Moon had always claimed that he was Jesus Christ's successor and moral superior. It was inconceivable that a fundamentalist Christian like Falwell would regard Moon as anything other than a blasphemer. But, as always, whenever confronted with a choice between money, connections, or the appearance of propriety, propriety came last. "



Ye shall know them by those they hang out with.... Carl 1:1.

 

When I suggested that humans, by our very nature, are evil, I did not mean to imply that we weren't capable of doing good things. We are capable of kindness and charity. A murderer can still help an old woman across the street. A thief can still defend the rights of the weak. A chold molester can still give to charity. What I am suggesting is that a simple view at secular history should prove that humans, as a society, are evil beings.

Pug

 

Hi Nosborne,

I think it is terribly irresponsible to repeat rumors. I challenge you to either substantiate the rumor or retract your repetition of this vile rumor.

http://www.falwell.com/?a=news&news=prsanti

 

If it is not right for a loving God to punish people for their wicked ancestors, then I ask is it right for a loving God to bless guilty people because of their Godly ancestors?

How is it "inconceivable" as you say? It does not say anywhere in that scripture that their is no forgiveness, that there is no hope for those whos ancestors displeased God. God is clearly stated in the scriptures as forgiving to those who will humble themselves, ask it of him, and change their ways.

In no way does it even remotely say that, what in the world does that commandment have to do with believers tolerance of other faiths?

The tone of your post seems as that of a person that is somewhat bitter about this subject. It seems you just want to automaticly assume the God of the Bible is a terrible person and write him off. I cant really blame you if you are bitter, there are many so-called preachers who are a disgrace and do not honor the teaching of Jesus Christ and God whom they are suppose to be serving.

Dont let Jerry Falwell, who is an imperfect man, shape your opinions of the God; if you have disgust for some preachers dont let that disgust cloud your vision.

 

Two points: First, Falwell doesn't speak for nor represent the majority of evangelical Christians.

Billy Graham and Lloyd Ogilvie do a much nicer job of that.

Second, I like Pugbelly but I disagree here. I believe man is inherently good but can and does choose evil much of the time, I'm afraid.

I have never accepted the total depravity of man.