I really do. They imply a precision in the evaluation process that simply doesn't exist. There is no way we can identify the difference between grades, and no one does. There is no way we can distinguish the difference between, say a B+ and an A-, for example. It is incredibly subjective and NOT subject to such fine distinctions. Not even on "objective" tests because the test writer is hardly objective; exams on the same subject change over time, some easier than others. But grades are compared over time as if they measured the same things. They don't. I'm reminded of the first down measurement in American football. Where the ball is placed at the end of a play is largely the judgment of the official. That official tries to determine where the ball was when the player was tackled. It isn't the farthest point the player's body landed, it's where he had the ball tucked. Incredibly imprecise. But if the placement is near to earning the offensive team a first down, they trot out these two guys with poles connected by a 10-yard chain. One inch one way, first down. One inch the other, punt. A precise measurement for an inprecise process. Silly. (The 10 yards necessary to acheive a first down start from the point of another imprecise placement, by the way.) An alternative: just give the official the power to decide. The chains provide absolutely no additional information since they're based on subjective measurement. Just leave it subjective without the pretense of precision. Same with grades. Grades ought to be pass and fail. That's what we do in corporate training. You either meet the learning objectives or you do not. Yes, it is nice to recognize outstanding achievement, but we try to do far more than that with grades. We try to make fine distinctions with processes incapable of doing so. So, even if you want to recognize oustanding achievers, do you really need to distinguish between a C+ and a B-? Can you? I propose the abolishment of all grades as they are imprecise, do not measure what they purport to measure, and serve no purpose. I would recommend three tiers: Fail Pass Pass with Distinction (for the upper 10% or so) The "Pass with Distinction" designation has all the same frailties I've described. But, at least, I've narrowed it down to one, getting rid of the other meaningless and useless designations. And it would eliminate the A-, B-, and C-, which are consolation prizes anyway. (Anyone who's had a student try to wrangle an A- when a B+ has been given understands this dilemma.) Whaddaya think?
hi Rich - I had to post since I agree with you - and that is how we started at Aspen/ISIM - what grief we got! We stuck to our guns for awhile, then tuition reimbursement kicked in and would not pay for Pass Fail (we actually chose the kinder pass no pass option!) and so we had to change. Now, even for those few students who do credit by exam where we only do pass no pass we get people annoyed that they can't get a grade. Personally I keep saying it's about the learning not about the grade, but I am in a small choir! Hope you are doing well, Mary
Mary brings up an important point: tuition reimbursement. Some companies require a passing grade, others require passing at a certain level (like a B). Still others base the percentage of tuition reimbursed on the grade received! This puts outrageous pressure on facutly members when students come to them asking how they can increase their grades. Some students cannot afford to be B or C students because they don't get reimbursed enough. It's stupid and short-sighted on the companies' part.
Consider this. You are an adjunct, teaching classes for "working adults," all of whom are on tuition reimbursement. What is your effective grade range? Exactly. jon
A recommendation that warrants further reflection, certainly worthy of a C+. But since its you, Rich, I'll give you a B-.
The answer as a student is to work hard enough to get an A whatever the biases involved. Your proposed system of grading is still plagued by the same issues you bring up for the A-F system -- its just that you have less categories. Learning is not the only objective in school. Proving yourself successful and learning how to be successful in a competitive environment is almost as important as the subject matter itself.
What about the other intelligences? I am with you, Rich! I do psychotherapy in private practice plus I teach college psychology courses. I see all the time the dissonance between having a bright mind while flunking loving your children and wife. School does not teach you how to live. It fails to teach WISDOM (the ability to make the best decisions with the knowledge you have). That is the bankruptcy of academia. It is very linear and stuck at the cranial level. It cannot transcend to "love" and "sprituality," etc. I think it was Gardner who came up with 7-8 intelligences besides what we already try to measure. I would like to see academics take a test in the areas of: 1) intuition 2) ability to connect socially 3) ability to solve life problems (a): social, (b) tasks 4) ability to mediate conflict successfully I think it was Dale Carnegie who said that successful people attributed their success to something like 86% people skills and 14% to technical knowledge. I think there are geniuses in intuition who would flunk grammar. I think there are geniuses in artistic expression who would flunk math. I think there are geniuses with their hands that can build anything that would flunk quantum mechanics. Go figure.
I think we've been here before. Very Sixties. Your system is no more "precise" than any other and eliminates, for the majority of the students, any incentive to work harder for the next higher grade. Grades vary from class to class and from instructor to instructor and from year to year and from school to school and so on. There is no magical standard to apply to eliminate the variabilities giving rise to your objections. The grading standard has met the test of time so why change it?
grades based on what grading in schools reminds me of the famous "science projects" night schools love. Some are clearly done by the parents, some are clearly done by the student. Do you grade them based on what you believe is "student work" or on the work itself? When a students takes a test in school, is it a grade of the teaching or a grade of what the students knows-from any source? All the best!
The ability to ponder this question for more than 5 seconds implies an inability to be an effective teacher. Tuition reimbursement issues are NOT the teachers problem.
I am an adjunct...so the student who didn't participate in class, scored an average of 50 out of 72 on three open-book take-home tests, and consistently turned in late written assignments...was my problem when she received a low grade and subsequently lost her job? I don't think so! Bill Hurd
Reply I agree that grades can sometime be subjective. I just think that as a student where the grading system is not fair is when you go to a school that has strictly an A, B, C, and D. grading system. What I mean by this is that you could attend a school where you get an 80 for instance at one school and this is considered a C if using the A, B, C, system only with no + or -. At another school the grade of 80 would be considered a B-. Where it really makes a difference is if you get a 90. If your at a school that has just the straight letter grade, then this would be considered a B. Whereas, if you attend another school, this would be considered an A-. This can make a substantial difference with your GPA because the B would be considered a 3.0, whereas the A- would be considered a 3.7 or 3.8 depending upon which school you attended. This would show that the person who received a 3.7 or 3.8, has accumulated a great scholastical average, whereas at another school it would be considered just a 3.0. This to me is where grades become subjective and where is the real mean average? Which is really a true grade refelction? The student that goes to the school that has the B+ or A- is going to have a better chance of graduating with honors, as opposed to someone who just gets a 3.0. That is where I think grades are not fair and the student going to a school that just has a straight A, B. C, system is at a disadvantage.
Re: Reply My impression is that the "soft" disciplines are more subjective than the "hard" disciplines. Physics is hard to fake. Jim Morgan
Re: Re: Reply Deciding if an answer is right or wrong is more objective in physics than literature. However, even in physics, there is no universal standard on how hard exam questions should be, or how many questions should be put on a one hour exam, and so on. So even when correct answers are objectives, the degree of dificulty is still a matter of the instructor's discretion. My nearest experience to this is teaching calculus at the high school level.
I agree and disagree. I agree with the arguments against grades. I disagree that it would work better without grades because humans are strange. Going back to the football analogy. If they didn't go out there and measure using the precision of fractions of an inch (even though the placement of the ball error is probably +- a foot) then the fans would riot if the call went against their team. Analogous to the "riot" that Mary A mentioned. We humans seem to sometimes need our illusions.
