New respect for Pope & RCC

I developed some more respect for the Pope and the Catholic Church over 2 new issues. Note I am not Catholic myself.

The first is that they actually stood up and mentioned the problems of intermarriage between Catholics & Muslims and some of the hardships faced by women who then return to Muslim countries. The Pope also emphasized the need for Muslim Countries to do more to promote human rights and the dignity of women.

The second was the Bishop in Colorado Springs who said that Catholics should not be voting for Pro Abortion candidates and that none of them should be then coming up for communion when they are not in communion with the teaching of the church. You either support the teachings of the church or you do not and if you do not then you should not be participating in the sacraments.

North

 

Mea culpa.....mea culpa...mea maxima culpa. I posted this in the wrong forum. Oooops....maybe the moderators would be kind enough to move this to the Off Topic Forum.

Es tut mir Leid!

North

 

Yes, but this is the same group that concealed rampant sexual abuse of the children in its care by its own priests.

I really question whether thne RCC retains much moral authority.

 

Moral Authority

It seems like the hierarchy is drifting farther and farther to the right and going backwards. The abuse by a small group of priests was terrible, but the cover up was even worse.

I believe it was Pope Paul VI who commented about members of his own very conservative Curia (administrative staff in the Vatican) that they were like the Bourbon Kings of France of whom it was said that they learned little but forgot nothing.

 

IMO, that problem is even more widespread that we could ever imagine. A co-worker of mine spent almost 3 years in a Catholic seminary, and finally left because he was disgusted with the rampant homosexuality.

I have no idea why the Catholic church requires priests to be male, celibate, and doesn't allow them to marry. One of the most influential & effective Ministers I've ever met is a woman, who is a married to a male Minister.

If the Catholic church wants to survive, they really need to allow priests to marry. Female priests would be nice, also.

 

Bruce, pedophile and homosexual are not the same thing.

 

Moral Authority

Thank you for bringing that up Deb - the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual.

Bruce, we're in agreement on that point. The Episcopal/Anglican church made the transition.

 

Two thousand years of tradition?

 

Tradition - the ultimate refuge of people who don't have a logical reason for why they do things.

"We've always done it that way."

 

The fact that these priests are male, celibate, unmarried, and in some cases homosexual, does not give them a pass on breaking the law.

The problem is not the sex, marital status, or sexual preference of the priest. The problem is that they have committed crimes that were covered-up by the church.

I'm not going to make recommendations to the church on its qualifications to become a preists, but I will recommend that they obey the law and expose criminal activity.

 

Re: Moral Authority

Before I went into instructional technology, I worked in the crime prevention unit of a large sheriff's department. The research figures that I saw indicated that about 2/3 of underage sexual molestation victims were girls and about 1/3 were boys. Nearly all of the perpetrators were men. So, one could conclude that the majority of those perpetrators were hetrosexual.

Tony Pina
Faculty, CSU San Bernardino

 

Deb is correct that homosexuality is not the same as pedophile.

For the sake of argument, those that oppose homosexuals in the Priesthood (even those with the inclination) point out that the majority of the cases of Priesthood molestation were of adolescent boys. Therefore seeming to make a linkage between homosexual persuasion & molestation of teenage boys at least within the Priesthood. The opponents of gay clergy have been frustrated at the reluctance of the Catholic hiearchy to address the issue.

As an aside, one of the most interesting comments I heard was from a former Priest on a National News program who had molested an adolescent boy a long time ago and then left the Priesthood after therapy and when the Church wanted to put him back in the parish. He felt his fixation on adolescent boys had to do with his own arrested sexual development. He had been funnelled into an all male school (like a preseminary) when he indicated that he wanted to be a Priest. According to the National news prgram that interviewed him, this practice stopped in the late 70's (?).

Dr. Pina is correct that the majority of cases of child molestation are heterosexual. And certainly even if there were a linkage with the subset of the Catholic Priesthood of homosexuality and molestation of adolescent boys, that could not be extrapolated to the homsexual community at large anymore than to say that because the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual..all heterosexuals are pedophiles.

North

 

Well, if one third of the victim children are male and nearly all the perps are male and homosexuals are but a small percentage of males...

These are not the figures you'd want to present to disprove a linkage between male homosexuality and pedophilia.

 

The source of the problem...

The source of this whole problem is that Christian religions in general put forth this notion that "sex is bad" or "dirty", therefore leading practitioners towards a repressed sense of sexuality which tends to reveal itself in some very unhealthy ways.

And what could be more unhealthy than to expect otherwise-normal males to deny any and all aspects of physical love with a woman for their entire life?

What nonsense. What absolute perversity of belief. How totally against what any loving God would want for his Creation.

This goes for those guys who write the "Left Behind" books and that entire crowd too. I read somewhere (I think it was this week's Newsweek, that did a cover article on them) that to have an attitude towards God that he is a loving God who will forgive and let you into heaven anyway, even if you haven't followed every single rule in the Bible is "satanically inspired". No - to these guys you are damned unless you believe every word in the Bible, and follow every last law. I suppose this includes the laws about stoning people for slight infractions of "morality" too.

Until the world gets beyond their obsession with demonic religions that suppress all that is good in life (Christian and Muslim alike) we are indeed doomed to live a hellish life here and now.

 

<<I have no idea why the Catholic church requires priests to be male, celibate, and doesn't allow them to marry.>>

The RCC requirs their priests to be celibate and unmarried because, at least in part, of the teachings of the Apostle Paul in 1 Co 7:1-9. Even though Paul clearly states that, in his opinion, it is better to remain unmarried (in context, to better serve God), he makes it perfectly clear that this is only his opinion and NOT a command from God. The RCC seems to ignor the latter portion of the teaching. They seem also to ignor that Peter, the man that the RCC counts as their very first Pope, was himself married (Mt. 8:14). They also ignor Paul's prophetic words in 1 Ti 4:1-3, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."


Carl Says: <The source of this whole problem is that Christian religions in general put forth this notion that "sex is bad" or "dirty", therefore leading practitioners towards a repressed sense of sexuality which tends to reveal itself in some very unhealthy ways.>>

Carl, this is simply untrue. The Christian faith in no way teaches that sex is bad or dirty. In fact, the Christian faith teaches that sex is a beautiful gift from God, to be shared and enjoyed between a man and his wife. Christianity teaches that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing, that homosexuality and beastiality are bad things, and that orgies and other forms of group sex are bad things; but sex between a man and his wife is God ordained...a gift to be enjoyed freely. Again, the Apostle Paul speaks to this issue as well in 1 Co 7:3-5 "Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."


Sorry this post was so long, but if we are going to discuss the teachings of the Christian faith, let's get it right.

Pug

 

Re: Re: Moral Authority

That's because there are many more hetrosexuals than homosexuals. I don't know the exact percentage, but I can guarantee that less than 1/3 of all males are gay. According to your stats, there is an overrepresentation of pedophilia among homosexuals.

 

Look people! We can all debate the correctness of the Catholic religion's policies until we are blue in the face, but that is not the issue here.

The issue is that priests who break their vows should not be priests, and priests who break the law should be in prison.

Whether a priest is homosexual or hetrosexual is moot. He still has to obey the same covenants and laws. If a priest cannot control his sexual urges, then he is not cut-out to be a priest. If his sexual urges turn into crimes, then he should be prosecuted.

It's a simple concept.

 

Re: The source of the problem...

Stoning - Old Testament - "Best Before 33 AD"

What about the the New Testament -"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

<<No - to these guys you are damned unless you believe every word in the Bible, and follow every last law. I suppose this includes the laws about stoning people for slight infractions of "morality" too.>>

Carl, where are you getting your information on Christianity? First, about following "every little law, including the laws about stoning people": Christ fulfilled the Law given in the Old Testament. You will find no such command anywhere in the New Testament.

Secondly, Christianity is not, and has never been about following every law. And thank God it isn't! No one is able to follow every law or every command. Christians do not believe that we are judged on our own merits (how well we followed the rules). Christians believe that it is impossible, in our fallen state as sinful beings, to perfectly follow all of the rules. Christians believe that Christ paid our debt and was crucified for our transgressions. It is through our faith in Him, not through our own actions, that we are saved. If it were possible to "be good enough" to "earn" salvation, there would have been no need for Christ to have been crucified. As true followers of Christ we try very hard to live Godly lives, to present ourselves spotless before God, but we also know that we will all fall short of this goal.

Pug

 

Carl,

I just went back and read your posts. Your opinions seem to formed on a GROSS lack of understanding about the Christian faith. Incidentally, when you charge Christians (and Muslims) with suppressing "all that is good in lfe", to what specifically are you referring?

Pug