Requiring Teaching Certification at the Collegiate Level?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by me again, Dec 13, 2003.

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Requiring Certification for Collegiate-Level Instructors

  1. Standardized certification should be required for entry-level instructors at the collegiate level.

    1 vote(s)
    5.3%
  2. The collegiate system of teaching is fine. We should leave it alone.

    15 vote(s)
    78.9%
  3. Unsure [i](or for the whiners who [u]always[/u] complain about these polls)[/i] ;)

    3 vote(s)
    15.8%
  1. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    When I was in a masters program, which wasn’t very long ago, one of the professors made an interesting point when she said:
    • K-12 Teachers
      School teachers for k-12 have to get state certification to ensure that they are qualified to teach. This involves an entry-level examination to ensure that established minimal teaching standards have acquired by the applicant. Simply having a degree will not suffice.
    • Collegiate Teachers
      However, there is no certificate-to-teach at the collegiate level because all you need is a Masters degree or a Doctorate, assuming that other school-imposed criteria are met. There are no certification-exams to pass to ensure that the collegiate instructor is qualified to teach college students. Simply having a degree will suffice.
    For k-12, each state has its own certification standards and many states reciprocate the certifications of other states. However, at the collegiate level of teaching, simply having a proper degree seems to confer, carte blanch, the notion that the person is qualified to teach.

    Any thoughts from those of you who are, or have been, in the profession of teaching at the collegiate level?
     
  2. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I have taught at the K-12, community college and university levels and have trained teachers at all these levels for a number of years. Here are a few of my observations:

    1. K-12 teacher credentialing is a burdensome and often inefficient process (especially here in California. More options should be available for experienced professionals who wish to teach to "fast track" into a credential. Some legislators are working on this.

    2. Having a good deal of knowledge about a certain subject (even a PhD) is absolutely no guarantee that one will be able to transfer that knowledge in a competent fashion to another individual. We have all been in classes with professors who were extremely knowledgeable about their subject, but that couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. How many great musicans or artists, for example, cannot teach others to play or create as well as they?

    Many college professors have little or no knowledge about how people learn and the best ways to faciliate learning, nor do they know even basic principles of instrucitonal design or assessment of learning.

    Now, would I require a teaching certificate for new college professors? I don't think so, since I am not completely convinced of the efficacy of the K-12 teaching credential process. I think that new teachers (at the elementary, secondary or college level) should undergo an apprenticeship or residency (beyond the few weeks of "student teaching" require of K-12) and receive training and practice in their craft.

    Tony
     
  3. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Interesting. Sounds good to me. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2003
  4. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    Tony

    As I recall in 1967-68 my "apprenticeship" or student teaching was actually a year long and carried 6 semester units of credit. The prerequisite for that was "Methods and Observation" , a one semester course, where one mostly just sat and saw how things were done in a class.

    You are right. PhD's can be dopy profs. I wonder ,though, about the facility of learning principles of measurement and instruction while being hired to teach college classes. The supervision and tutoring of the flegling prof would seem to require a fair amount of work by one well qualified to do so.

    Perhaps it's too bad that doctoral programs intended to produce professors don't require some TA work as did the OSU EdD in 76-77. (Maybe it was just offered?)

    Then bozos like I could work out some wrinkles. I recall an attractive gal who after a class I was TAing said, "Mr. Grover, I'm Miss Oregon and so will will not here next week." Looking down the list of names of my class roster I said, while scratching my head, "Hmmm. That's funny. I don't see your name here.":rolleyes:
     
  5. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    While I did not vote in this poll, I cannot help but to think that we can do more to teach college professors some teaching methodologies while they are still seeking their PhD.
     
  6. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Teaching/University

    One should not be expected to teach at college or university level. It is up to the students to research and learn. The professor or lecturer merely directs and facilitates learning. In university or college the student is expected to be beyond needing a teacher to wipe their noses. If students can't cope they are not university or college material.

    Roy Maybery (High School Teacher)
     
  7. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Teaching/University

     
  8. kevingaily

    kevingaily New Member

    I selected unsure. I did so because while I'm not sure I'd want to push certification, I'd certainly want any potential teacher at the college level to have to take some teaching methodology and pedagogy classes. For one who has their Masters or Doctorate in Education this should be already required, correct me if I'm wrong. Yet the aspiring professor who's gotten his/her degree in their specific field of expertise,(chemistry eg.) and is now going to attempt to teach it at the college level may not have had any of these types of classes. This would apply for them IMO.
     
  9. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Re: Re: Teaching/University

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  10. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  11. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  12. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Teaching/University

    ===

    Are you reading and posting in this thread from your high school classroom?
     
  14. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Re: Re: Teaching/University

    No

    Roy Maybery
     
  15. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

    "I still maintain that secondary students should learn similarly to how college students learn --they should think."

    Perhaps some grade 12 academic students behave similar to college students. As for the rest, they simply don't learn like that. If a college environment was introduced into high school it would likely to be chaos. College and university students are simply more mature, if they are not they will probably fail


    "I also believe that college professors should teach not just just assign readings."

    I am sure they do. However, my assertion is that they do not need a B,Ed to do so because the difference in learning environment between highschool and post secondary is fundementally different. Post secondary demands that the onus is on the student to study (student and study have the same root meanings.) Where in school the pupils are taught by a teacher.

    Roy Maybery (confident enough in the validity of my own argument not to need to list my academic letters and professional experience)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

    ===



    I can agree to disagree with you. Your experiences and opinions are not mine. Let's leave it at that . We disagree. We both can live with that.

    Glad you're confident. Enjoy it.

    See ya,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2003
  17. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    I agree with Tony. I left the corporate world after 16 years and earned my teaching credential last year. I taught high school math last year as part of the teaching requirement.

    In general, I would say that the credential program was valuable, though much of it was theory that sort of went out the window when I was in the classroom (where survival was the name of the game). A credential program that focused more on practical issues such as classroom management, lesson planning, time management etc., would have been valuable. Perhaps the most valuable part of the credential program was the interaction with my cohorts in the program - trading horror stories, sharing tips and advice, and so on.

    I agree, though, that the whole process is inefficient. In CA, one must satisfy the subject matter competency requirements. Fortunately, my undergraduate program in math was strong enough that I was able to gain an exemption based on my transcripts - but the majority of my classmates who were teaching math were not so lucky. The competency test is fairly rigorous, and is quite a challenge for someone who did not major in math. I understand the state's desire to have qualified teachers, but some of my classmates were teaching 6th and 7th grade math (this is considered secondary school). One need not have a math degree at this level, so the State’s push seems a little misguided.

    I like the idea of an apprenticeship or residency, where a new teacher could work with an experienced teacher. I think nothing would get a new teacher up to speed faster. I would have killed for such an arrangement last year!
     
  18. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

    True that is what living in a civilized society is all about. It would make for boring disscussions if we all agreed.

    Seasons Greetings
    Roy Maybery
     
  19. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teaching/University

    ===

    Thanks. To you too.
     
  20. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    In which the weary Carpathicus slowly climbs upon a dead hobbyhorse.

    The only good thing about my grad school experience at Torquemada is that I was given 8 semester courses (5 different) to teach solo when I was a TA. I also finished the hs certification classroom work for the state of Obnoxia and 150 hrs of observation as well. I agree that much of what goes on in "certification" programs is tiresome and I would hate to see it imposed on future college/university instructors. I also agree that many a newly minted master or doctor hasn't a clue how to teach. Torq's using TAs as solo instructors (under evaluation by the department) was a good idea in a grad program and dept arse-full of bad ideas.

    Now, wouldn't it be nice if somebody developed a doctoral degree that required both original research and a certain amount of really responsible college-level teaching (NOT just stuffing scantrons or subbing for the real instructor)?

    Silly old Carpathian!

    It's called the Doctor of Arts degree.

    Of blessed memory, mostly.

    Sigh. Giddap.
     

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