Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Hi Bill. Your e-mail won't accept e-mail from my account and your private message box here on degreeinfo is full. Unplug yourself, sir! You is cyberconstipated.

 

===

I will now go to my PM Box again. I've twice before tried to clean the thing out but just am not doing it right, I guess.

But what happened with the email from you to me? Was working before.

I must have gotten you confused with of my creditors or with one of those blamed Arminians or, worse, an Andersonville supporter.

Sorry

 

Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Just for the record I am not an "Andersonville supporter," if you are refering to me. I simply answered someone's post. If you were not refering to me, as a good Arminian, I apologize.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong with your mailbox. The system is not back to par yet. I am not getting email notification when someone posts to a thread I have subscribed to and I have my options set to do so.

Finally, since your response was to a certain parson, you should have said "Deadblamed Arminians."

 

Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

===


Jimmy

No I did not have you in mind. Sorry about that. But I'm glad you set the record straight re Andersonville.

The Arminian comment was just nostalgia connected to the fun Russell and I had here some time ago in our shared banter.

While I , like all good exegetes am a Calvinist, soteriologically , not ecclesiastically speaking, I long ago gave up caring about eyebulging bickering over predestination and such.

What upsets me most about the doctrine of Jacobus Arminius, whose works we exhaustively studied in the required year of Arminian Theology in 1967 at Point Loma Nazarene [then Pasadena] in the MA program, is not the remonstrant portion of his dogma, but rather the monarchian manner he has in depicting the ontological trinal relationships and the consequent functional subordination of the Son.

That widely held tenet is what I intend to fight against for the rest of my life. As the large tatoo on my right inner wrist bears witness to in Greek , that subjection was economic, not essential, as shown by the Pauline clause on my skin ,and in my heart, : "alla heauton ekenosen."

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

I do apologize then for thinking you were refering to me. I have no problem with The Five Articles of the Remonstrants and, as you know, I hold to a unitarian theology.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Of course, John Calvin was correct in 100% of his theology.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Too bad he gave tacit approval to the execution of Michael Servetus!

 

Bill--if you are in here among the flummery--the e-mail problem is on your end. I can receive your e-mails OK, and refceive and send to others without let or hindrance. Contact your ISP for help and quote the popup box I mentioned earlier.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

==

I think I said above I disagree with Calvin's ecclesiology.


But the Christology of Arminius and about 95% of evangelicals today gags me. The effects of the premises they hold , practically speaking, is Jimmy's position, and of course I think Arianism so very wrong. But if Jimmy, a Unitarian, likes Arminius, then, Russell, do you see which end of the stick you are holding?

BTW Jimmy, how is it a Unitarian is so cozy with the Shuemake dynasty?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Many today feel those who profess Arminian views have taken his theology to an extreme. I consider myself a "unitarian" with a small "u."

I like classical unitarianism--belief in God as a supernatural being, belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, belief in answered prayer, bestowal of blessings, and granting of miracles (ala Channing).

I have always been a defender of anyone or any organization that I think is being maligned or assailed unfairly whether I agree with them in toto or not. Plus, with minor exceptions, Shuemake's concept of Biblical morality and mine are similar.

Since we have been discussing Arminianism, let me quote one of my favorites, John Wesley: "Think and let think."

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Subjective comment and position, Bill. Of course, to each his own. Perhaps when the thesis on trinal relationships is completed you can found your own movement, the Groverites. Isn't this how most movements were founded, the discovery of some fine point of theological truth not wholly embraced by the mainstream?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

===

Who the Son is , is hardly a "fine point."



I am basing my conclusions on what I consider to be objective, revealed truth.

You call my comment "subjective." Very well, you before have said that you agree with the inerrancy of Scripture.

Arminius says the Son is not autotheos, only the Father is. You say I'm being subjective when I disagree with that statement.

As you and I do agree at least on inerrancy, why don't you give me your best argument in support that the Son is not autotheos based on that inerrant writing?

But if you do not do this , since you do not know my arguments that the Son is autotheos, I really fail to see how you can justify your view that I am being subjective. You do not know the bases for my view. So you have prejudged me.

So, give me your best shot and please to not weasel out for if you do weasel out, then why should anyone doubt the subjectivity of your own remark to me and, most condemning, your lack of ability to support your own view on the matter?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

My observation exactly, Bill. You are basing your conclusions on what "you" consider to be objective truth. Isn't this what any theologian does, i.e., from one's own research and study, assume a particular position based on what one deems objective truth? In this regard, my comment was not demeaning. Just as you do not agree with Calvin on all points, nor do I agree with Arminius on all points. Arminius would never have bantered with Calvin as I do with you.

 

===


Unk try now.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

===



"Subjective" means "existing in the mind" not in "an external object." In my dissertation I rather am basing my conclusions on external facts ; the quality of that dissertation will be judged according to the extent which I do that.

Here is one example. Arminius bases his view on Christology, that Christ is not autotheos, on eternal generation. That doctrine is based practically in its entirety on the meaning of the adjective monogenes and the verb gennao as applied in Nice and Chalcedon to that supposed eternal begetting of the Son.

If I say gennao never in Scripture is used with eternal generation as a referent, then Russell that claim is easily proven as objective or as subjective. All it requires is a bit of lexical work. You have said , without even hearing my reasons, that I am being subjective. So check it out yourself. Where does gennao refer to eternal generation in the NT?

Where is gennao ,which those creeds and Arminius apply to the Son's eternal essentiation, ever used in Scripture for anything but the Son's physical birth? If it is not, then who really here is being subjective Russell?

As for the adjective, consider the Septuagintal evidence. Monogenes only translates the Hebrew Word 'yahid.' Yahid never in the OT means "only begotten." So who is being subjective?

I personally exegeted in the Greek the seven occurences of monogenes in that Greek translation. Can you name one of these occasions where it means only begotten? So, who is being subjective?

My dissertation , and my view, is based on evidence elicited from external objects. It is not subjective. If you think it is then show it to be so by using the examples of the two data I provide above.

If I am being subjective here, then prove it.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

Hi Bill,


First, the doctrine that Christ is God is not Biblical.

Second, Bethany did not and, I assume, does not "spoon feed" its students. It allows one to think.

Third, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Fourth, all these councils you listed, especially the Council of Nicea, is the reason the Stone-Campbell Movement has as its motto "No Creed but Christ, no book but the Bible." Thus, we don't need paganistic councils to tell us how to believe, especially the Council of Nicea with its "homoousious" doctrine.

As you know trinitarian gods pre-date Christianity. The Catholic Church adopted the Babylonian trinity of Father, Mother, and Son. And don't forget Vishnu, Brahma and Siva.

Fifth, if you ask most members of denominational churches if they believe Jesus is God you will be surprised at the answer. In every church I have pastored, in several denominations, there were many in the congregation who did not believe Jesus is God.

Sixth, although the Trinity belief was very evident in some of my Th.M. courses it never created a problem for me in coursework or papers. The reason for education is to learn, learn other points of view. So, I learned quite a bit about fundamentalism while at Bethany.

Seventh, my Ph.D. was in Christian Counseling and the Trinity was not an issue.

Eigth, since you are a Calvinist here is a quote from him about the Trinity: He said the Trinity is "a popish God, or idol, a mere human invention, a barbarous, insipid, and profane word; and he utterly condemns that prayer in the litany--O holy, glorious, and blessed Trinity, &c. as unknown to the prophets and apostles, and grounded upon no testimony of God's holy word."

But, the good news is that both you and I have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour and will share in the "blessed assurance." PTL!

 

Hi Bill!!!

See you come back and answer a post and find yourself back in the saddle again!

It's just good to hear from you bro. How's your dissertation going? Do you still think you're on track to finish before your 65th birthday?

Hey, I have a question for you. Do you know of a book or set of books that summerize what the early church father's espoused to. I don't want a thirty book set, just a small set that gives a brief summery on what they said, and are famous for saying. As well as a bit of history surrounding them too.

Take care!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bill Grover Unplug Yourself