Ph.D. in Psych (non-clinical) vs. Ph.D. in Counseling

Folks,

Assuming you have a state license to counsel at the Masters level then would you say that a Ph.D. in Psychology (not clinical but academic/experimental, etc.) would go farther in the perceptions of people AND academia than a Ph.D. in Counseling?

What do you think?

I tend to think you can get more mileage out of the word "Psychology."

 

From your recent posts you appear to be more concerned with figuring out how you can most effectively manipulate peoples opinions of you than you are in actually learning something of specific interest. Legitimate PhD programs are difficult undertakings and if you do not know your own interests sufficiently to answer the above question on your own then you are probably not ready for any real doctoral work. I'm sorry for being so negative but the mental health field already has enough posers.
Jack

 

Blackbird,

It appears that you have already concluded that a doctorate in Psychology woulld be more advantageous. So, what is holding you back from taking the plunge? Why continue the discussion when you have received a number of perspectives regarding this subject and have sufficient information to take the next step, entering a doctoral program in psychology?

However, it does appear that you are ambivalent and are seeking to perpetuate the topic rather than make a decision. Obviously that is you right but to what end?

Anyway, whatever you decide or don't, I wish you the best.

 

Who are the people in the picture?

 

A PhD in auto mechanics would work. It comes with 2 magic letters, Dr.

The guys in the picture, isn't that Frankie Yankovics backup band? I am not sure which one plays accordian and which one plays tuba.

 

Whoa, Jack!

Jack... you can't possibly be talking about me. I agree... we don't need "posers." I've seen plenty of them. Jack... when you look at increasing your debt from 20k (masters degree schooling) to about 60k or 80k, you don't make those decisions lightly or quickly. You want to get the most "zing" out of whatever degree you get because it is an investment. It may not return what it is "packaged and positioned" (or "manipulated?") to appeal to you. Caveat Emptor.

If you knew, beforehand, that changing a label on your business card would dramatically increase your market share and legitimized to folks who have been "manipulated" by media or even the APA that you are competent versus a lessor know label. You would then be a very wise person. Of course, all legally done.

If you have difficulty with this it might be because perhaps you might be wanting, like in California, to take the "psycho" out of "psychotherapist."

Anyhow... I'm sure you mean no harm or insult as I don't either.

Thanks for your frank thoughts (though naive).

 

Nah...you all have it wrong!

It is a band called, "The PSYCHOmetrics"!

 

Blackbird,

Several of your points are well taken. It is very important to be positively perceived by those who may impact on your future. There isn't any doubt that a doctorate in Clinical Psychology adds to one's credibility and visibility. Although there is an inundation of the field of Clinical psychology with Ph.Ds and Psy.D's, it still holds its weight as a prestigious discpline.

It is also true that prior to investing a considerable amount of time, effort and money into a doctoral course of study, one has to carefully discern the benefits and negative aspects associated with their decision.

The issue of counseling as a viable profession and the vignettes you presented regarding the difficulties many counselors encounter in terms of earning a living, also have merit. The discipline of counseling has only recently moved in the direction of obtaining licensure status and is only in the beginning phase of being recognized as a profession that offers similar benefits as does its sister mental health fields, Social Work and Clinical/Counseling Psychology.

Now, with all this being said, lets get back to your particular situation. It is clear that your concerns are legitimate. However you have cogently presented a number of factors that would hold you back from considering the pursuit of a doctorate in Clinical or Counseling Psychology. Some of these issues centered around issues of time, money, not wishing to administer assessments (which is the distinguishing signature of these professions), and your wish to not engage in a lengthy research oriented dissertation or internship/residency process.

What about Academic or Experimental Psychology? Well, you would be required to take a core curriculum of courses very similiar to those for Clinical or Counseling PScyhology including Cognitve, Biological, Social, history and systems and a number of others. Are these course really congruent with your future goals? Are you willing to complete such courses and pay alot of money for them when they are not consonant with your expressed goals and professional interests? Are you actually interested in the highly research area of experimetal psychology or in teaching in academic settings? Your postings do not seem to indicate that your'e oriented in that direction.

Although your points regarding the counseling profession are generally true, they may not apply to you and others. It is based on what the degree will be used for. From what you have stated, it does not appear that you are really interested in performing the role tasks or functions of a counselor but intend to utilize the doctorate in totally different occupational contexts. So for your purposes and intentions, a doctorate in counseling does not correlate with the situation encountered by a twenty one year old, fresh from graduation, who is seeking a first job in a social or rehabilitation agency performing basic counseling duties. You are a mature adult whose aspirations, self-direction, level of awareness and ambition are gearing you towards other directions than that of a younger graduate.

 

BlackBird here... can't log on despite notifying forum e-mail.


Simon,
I have not been able to get back with you because for some strange reason, my handle (BlackBird has been disabled and I can't get on no matter what I do. I have e-mailed the forum address several times but to no avail).

My response follows:

Well said, Simon. That's right. We are not spring chickens... but we have been around the block several times to know what games we want to play and which ones to avoid. Well said, Simon.

BlackBird as MMTour (Magical Mystery Tour)

 

Blackbird,

A degree in Psychology from Saybook may allow you to address those areas of interest you noted. It is also possible that a doctorate in the interdiscplinary program at the Union Institute may meet your needs. Within the context of this program one can develop a title of their doctorate that is congruent with their professional interests.

However, I am not certain whether a degree from these schools would result in more professional or career opportunities than a doctorate in counseling. I am not atttampting to persuade anyone with the notion that a doctorate in counseling is the way to go. However, unless one obtains a clinical degree in psychology that leads to licensure the benefits of a distance learning doctorate in general or academic psychology is questionable.

Of course if one is currently involved in academia and needs a doctorate in Psychology in order to obtain seniority or tenure, that is a different story. If one, on the other hand is hoping to obtain teaching positions with a DL doctorate in general or academic Psychology without previous experience, the potential for obtaining such jobs within the context of traditional colleges and universities is very limited (unless one wishes to teach online where there may be greater opportunities for success).

The bottomline still remains that students at advanced stages in life need to be very clear regarding their purposes in obtaining a doctorate. Blackbird if your interest is specifically to study the areas you noted in your previous posting, the question to ask is whether a doctorate would help further future career objecitves in such subject areas. In addition, is a doctorate realy needed to explore these interest areas considering the significant amount of money, time and energy that will need to be invested in such an endeavor? Ultimately you will need to come to grips with these issues and hopefully make a sagacious decision.

 

Welcome back Blackbird/MMtour, losing connectivity is a hassle. The questions you present have been addressed at some length and if you haven’t already done so you can catch the high points by doing a name search on Simon or me and scan the relevant threads. There is a decided difference of opinion on this board about the value added by mental health related doctorates that don’t qualify for additional certification. I weigh in on the side of why bother. In point of fact, if asked I no longer encourage folk to pursue doctoral training in small ‘c’ clinical psychology as the field has become so saturated. But I do respect a person’s choice to do so; I vividly recall the fire in my belly. All I ask is that the person do his or her due diligence. There are a couple of articles in the February 1999 edition of the Monitor which I think are mandatory reading and they can be found on the APA website. My bona fides are these: I went on for a PhD in counseling several years after I finished my MSW and human nature and cognitive dissonance being what they are I had a rude awakening. Paradoxically, I found that some folk were not impressed by my shiny new doctorate but, instead, looked at me askance like I couldn’t get into a psychology program and settled for second best. I didn’t see that one coming and I found it very deflating. Cognitive dissonance caused me to have difficulty sustaining the ideas that I was not eligible for psychology credentialing despite the fact that I had studied so much psychologically related material. I was frustrated by the limitations so I went on and earned a second PhD in counseling psychology. ‘Tour, I recognize YMMV and if the counseling doctorate is the way you want to go, have at it …but with eyes open. I offer anecdotal observations based on a few decades of experience. Another regular poster has expressed similar concerns you’ll find in old threads. Moreover, in the woulda, shoulda, coulda department, I wish I had gone to school on the experience of one of my mentors. Social workers off a ‘certain age’ will likely recall Norman Polansky, who was a social work educator, as having written the texts used in most MSW programs for courses in research and ego psychology. Norm’s PhD was in social psychology and while he identified himself as a social worker he was always frustrated that he wasn’t eligible for licensure as a psychologist.

‘Tour, like I said in another post, your achievement at age 49 is terrific and based upon what you’ve said about your clinical interests should absolutely get you where you want to go. Best of luck and feel free to drop me a direct post if you have any questions I might address. Actually, I tried to send you a message that obviously didn’t get through due to the break in your access.

I’ve penned way more than I intended to and I think that when this topic re-emerges I’m simply going to refer folk to earlier threads. I’m starting to feel like a meld of Groundhog Day and Rocky where Simon and I burn up bandwith repeating the 14th round ad nauseum without ever getting to the bell.

 

Blackbird,

Obviously you are reviewing and integrating disparate perspectives regarding the benefits and issues relating to this or that doctoral program.The bottomline is that any decision an individual makes regarding their choice of programs should derive from their needs, interests, goals, financial and time considerations, age related factors, future employment possibilities, etc.

Personally, I disagree that one should forgo a particular field of study due to its being potentially saturated. Although it is very important to consider the current employment trends and prospects, If one has strong motivation, desire and the aptitude to pursue a specific program of study, these negative employment outlooks do not necessarily apply to you, me or the next guy. These statistics are generalized indicators that do not imply that everyone who enters a specific profession such as Clinical psychology, will not succeed. In fact, anecdotally, I know of a significant number of Clinical Psychologists in private practice, government and in the private organizational sector. Some of these individuals are earning in the six figures while others are earning approximately $55,000- $65,000 range. Different strokes for different folks.

Let me provide another anecdotal example in relationship to myself. With just a masters degree in a mental health discipline that I completed in my early twenties, I moved on to become a senior administrator of psychiatric units of a major healthcare facility. I was responsible for the administrative supervision of all the Psychiatrists, doctoral level Clinical and Counseling psychologists, Nurses, Social Workers,etc In addition, I led several interdisciplinary treatment teams. I obtained this position through a selection process in which I competed against a number of doctoral level Clinical Psychologists. My point is that without a doctorate, I reached a professional level where I was earning significantly more money than all of the doctoral level Psychologists under my aegis.

The bottomline is that it is primarily the individual, not the nature of the degree that results in success. If one has the self-direction, motivation, aggressivity, talent and courage as well as sufficient emotional intelligence they can succeed in many realms without having to refer to themselves specifically as doctor this or that. The degree does not make the man but the reverse. So, when making ones final decision, it is extremely important to start the evaluation process from within and than move to the external realities. By understanding one's strengths and adaptive skills as well as limitations and to complete this self-exploration as forthrightly as possible, one will be in a better position to decide what route is in their best interests despite occupational forecasts.

 

Simon, the Word-smith...

I agree, Simon. You should consider writing books. You are quite eloquent and have adeptness with words. (Maybe you are already published.)

 

On this we do agree.

I’m reminded of the story about the aging couple. Married for 60 years, they know each other so well they worked out a code where instead of repeating their stories they simply refer to the item.

He: “Number 22.”
She: “Number 7”
Combined: They have a chuckle.

Maybe what we need to do is to work out a code. <grin>

Poster: “I have an MSW and I want to get a PhD in some area of human services but I don’t want to go to the trouble of taking a degree in clinical psychology. What should I do?”
Simon: “Numbers 12, 5, 33”
David: “No, numbers 6, 7 and 19”

Simon, I really don’t think I’m going to do anything more than refer folk to past threads but you have my blessing to keep shouting me down, turn the fastest quarter, or whatever. You may not buy it but there is a lot of value for people to have exposure to different positions. With anchors people can work out the dialectic and figure out what is best for them. Without anchors you wind up with a mess like moral relativism.

Best of luck with your future endeavors. Toodles,

Dave

 

David: On this we do agree.

Response: David, it is not solely a matter of disagreement but a basic difference in underlying philosophy and perspective towards how one should proceed to select and decide regarding educational and career goal planning.

David: I’m reminded of the story about the aging couple. Married for 60 years, they know each other so well they worked out a code where instead of repeating their stories they simply refer to the item.

David:He: “Number 22.”
She: “Number 7”
Combined: They have a chuckle.

Maybe what we need to do is to work out a code. <grin>

Poster: “I have an MSW and I want to get a PhD in some area of human services but I don’t want to go to the trouble of taking a degree in clinical psychology. What should I do?”
Simon: “Numbers 12, 5, 33”
David: “No, numbers 6, 7 and 19”

Response: It is not a matter of a rivalry on my part. However, David, it appears that you are experiencing difficulty with a poster with a contrasting position.

David: Simon, I really don’t think I’m going to do anything more than refer folk to past threads but you have my blessing to keep shouting me down, turn the fastest quarter, or whatever. You may not buy it but there is a lot of value for people to have exposure to different positions.

Response: Quite frankly I am not posting to compete with your ideology or to negate your position. No one is shouting you down or attempting to turn the fastest quarter and it is too bad that you are experiencing the expression of my perspective as referential to yourself.

In addition, nothing in my posting indicates that I am protesting against any contrasting perspectives, opinions or positions whether it be yours or anyone else. It appears that you are having the problem with my postings because I am quite comfortable with any thoughts you profess whether opposite or parallel to my own.

David: With anchors people can work out the dialectic and figure out what is best for them. Without anchors you wind up with a mess like moral relativism.

Simon: Once again David, this is not an issue for me but one that appears you are having difficulty with. I say this with all due respect. However, this matter needed to be clarified.

David: Best of luck with your future endeavors. Toodles,

Simon: And to you as well.