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  1. #1
    BlackWolf is offline Registered User
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    Cool MIGS

    I like what I have seen on the MIGS/CEU website as far as their Ph.D geriatric psychology specialization. Can anyone tell me has the University rebounded from all the previous controversies. I am very much interested in pursuing such a gerontology related doctoral degree. Also, Mr. Douglas, Dr. Bear, or any MIGS doctoral candidates I Would particularly appreciate your expertise. Thank You!

  2. #2
    BillDayson is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BlackWolf:
    I like what I have seen on the MIGS/CEU website as far as their Ph.D geriatric psychology specialization.
    My suggestion would be to contact the American Psychological Association and the psychological licensing people in your particular state to verify that a MIGS/CEU degree would meet their requirements.

    Can anyone tell me has the University rebounded from all the previous controversies.
    I don't think that anything has changed at all. None of the questions about MIGS was ever resolved. MIGS never made any move to explain itself or to answer any questions. All that happened was that this newsgroup lost interest.

    My opinion, stated ad-nauseum in the past, is that MIGS is basically a state-approved program with attitude. I consider it no more credible academically than any number of California approved schools out here that could qualify you for CA psychology licensure.

    But MIGS/CEU may qualify you for a psychologist 's license in states besides California. That's probably the best thing that can be said for it.

    But if I were you I would investigate that very carefully and verify MIGS/CEU's acceptability in your state before enrolling.



  3. #3
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    Nothing has happened lately to change my view that the Centro de Estudios Universitarios, which issues the diploma and degree following completion of the work through MIGS, is a decent, legitimate, properly-accredited (by the Mexican Ministry) university . . . but that M.I.G.S. itself has the worst marketing and quite possibly the most annoying administration of any legitimate school in years.

    I continue to find the car analogy appropriate. If you want to buy a Saturn (not a Lexus or a Bentley), and the only dealer in town has the worst ads and the most annoying salesman and management ever, you might deal with them anyway, since the end product is a decent car, and you'll probably never see those people again.

    Because of my ongoing criticism of this aspect of M.I.G.S., generally addressed to the man who seems to run the office in Florida, Dr. Forman wrote me, two weeks, to accept my resignation as chairman of Rich Douglas' guidance committee.

    I responded, indignantly (with copies to every name I knew at CEU) that I had not resigned, and had no wish to resign as long as Rich was enrolled. And that is where things are now.

    I think it is safe to say that Rich and I both are eager just to get it all over with (his doctoral research will really make a major contribution to this field), delete the Florida contact numbers from our Rolodexes, and move on with life.

    John Bear
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning (10 Speed Press/Random House)
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    B.A., M.J., University of California Berkeley; Ph.D. Michigan State University

  4. #4
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BillDayson:
    (snipped)

    My opinion, stated ad-nauseum in the past, is that MIGS is basically a state-approved program with attitude. I consider it no more credible academically than any number of California approved schools out here that could qualify you for CA psychology licensure.


    MIGS isn't a degree-awarding school and the CEU meets GAAP. (And the CEU has the full governmental approval, which has been extended to MIGS.) There is no basis for comparing either with a California-approved school. The CEU is a university whose degrees are comparable to those issued by accredited schools in the U.S. MIGS has an agreement with the CEU to conduct degree programs under the CEU's auspices, with the result being a CEU degree.

    Still, I agree whole-heartedly with Bill's cautions about using a MIGS/CEU program to satisfy licensing requirements. In fact, I'm very dubious of the possibility. While I was studying at The Union Institute , many (about 80%) of students were in psychology . The one's interested in licensure were faced with getting their states to accept a Union degree, shaping the degree program to meet their respective states' requirements, and still building a program they could complete. That uphill climb can only be compounded by taking your degree from a foreign university. It may be theoretically possible to use a degree from the CEU earned through MIGS to gain licensure as a psychologist , you should be very sure before you begin.

    I'm more than glad to say something critical about MIGS (and have many, many times). But I'd prefer to be factual.

    Rich Douglas

  5. #5
    BillDayson is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
    MIGS isn't a degree-awarding school and the CEU meets GAAP. (And the CEU has the full governmental approval, which has been extended to MIGS.) There is no basis for comparing either with a California-approved school.
    Of course, California-approved schools also have the full approval of their government. The reason that Califonia approval gets so little respect is that the scrutiny that is required to achieve it is much less searching and credible than that excercised by the regional accreditors.

    In the case of state approval by Nuevo Leon, it is reasonable to ask whether that approval is based on a QA process that is comparable to American regional accreditation, or whether it is a looser scrutiny more like California's.

    The CEU is a university whose degrees are comparable to those issued by accredited schools in the U.S. MIGS has an agreement with the CEU to conduct degree programs under the CEU's auspices, with the result being a CEU degree.
    But MIGS/CEU's academic equivalence to American regionally accredited schools is precisely the issue, isn't it? If the Mexican state officials simply approved CEU's new doctoral curricula on paper, and did not pay adaquate attention to how those curricula would actually be delivered to students by MIGS here in the United States, then you have something very much like California state approval.

    The question whether MIGS/CEU is more similar to a California-approved school or to a regionally-accredited school can only be answered by a credible and transparent external quality assurance process.




  6. #6
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BillDayson:
    (snipped)
    The question whether MIGS/CEU is more similar to a California-approved school or to a regionally-accredited school can only be answered by a credible and transparent external quality assurance process.


    This ignores the facts. The CEU is listed in both the International Handbook of Universities and the PIER World Education Series, either of which meet GAAP. Both of these are the "external quality assurance process(es)" needed.

    Yes, the CEU has the approval of Nuevo Leon, much like National University has the approval of the state of California. Beyond those approvals, both meet GAAP.

    John Bear's survey of admissions officials (that I had the pleasure to analyze at great length), clearly supports the fact that admissions officials at regionally accredited schools make a clear distinction between foreign schools meeting GAAP and state-approved schools. This has been related many times on this forum. In fact, schools listed in the IHU--and, even more so, schools listed in their respective country's PIER guide--are accepted to levels comparable to nonresidential, regionally accredited schools.

    While one's opinion may change, the facts do not. The CEU meets GAAP, and foreign schools meeting GAAP are very much accepted by regionally accredited schools.

    Rich Douglas

  7. #7
    Bill Huffman is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
    This ignores the facts ...
    The fact is that Rich keeps saying that he's not a defender for MIGS but somehow he keeps looking like one. It's okay though, it will hopefully be his alma mater someday and one should defend their school when one feels that it is unfairly attacked.

    Check out some of the older threads about MIGS in this forum and see what I feel are much bigger concerns about MIGS that Rich has not attempted to defend.


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  9. #8
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Bill Huffman:
    The fact is that Rich keeps saying that he's not a defender for MIGS but somehow he keeps looking like one. It's okay though, it will hopefully be his alma mater someday and one should defend their school when one feels that it is unfairly attacked.

    Check out some of the older threads about MIGS in this forum and see what I feel are much bigger concerns about MIGS that Rich has not attempted to defend.
    To "defend" is to advocate a position. I do not. I'm simply stating the facts. I have never recommended a MIGS/CEU program to anyone. And while there has certainly been plenty to criticize, I would prefer the facts used be accurate ones.

    How hard is this? The CEU meets GAAP, is properly accredited/approved/listed, and is very respectable. MIGS has been a troubled approach to awarding the CEU's degrees. Both are true, with neither negating nor improving the other.

    And if it's "okay," why move the discussion away from the issues to me personally? Stick to the facts. There's plenty there to discuss.

    Rich Douglas

  10. #9
    BillDayson is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
    This ignores the facts. The CEU is listed in both the International Handbook of Universities and the PIER World Education Series, either of which meet GAAP. Both of these are the "external quality assurance process(es)" needed.
    How does being listed in two reference books constitute a credible external quality assurance process?

    Do the editors of these publications operate their own accrediting organization? Do they make world-wide site visits? Or do they simply defer to the decisions of the local authorities?

    Yes, the CEU has the approval of Nuevo Leon, much like National University has the approval of the state of California. Beyond those approvals,
    both meet GAAP.
    My question is whether the Nuevo Leon approval process is more similar to California approval or to American regional accreditation. I fail to see how incantaions of "GAAP" make that question any clearer.

    John Bear's survey of admissions officials (that I had the pleasure to analyze at great length), clearly supports the fact that admissions officials at regionally accredited schools make a clear distinction between foreign schools meeting GAAP and state-approved schools.
    I'm sure that Dr. Bear's survey is interesting and perhaps important. But is it even relevant to the question I'm asking?

    Did the Nuevo Leon approval process that MIGS supposedly underwent more closely resemble the California state approval process or the American regional accreditation process?

    While one's opinion may change, the facts do not. The CEU meets GAAP, and foreign schools meeting GAAP are very much accepted by regionally accredited schools.
    By university admissions officers at least. That doesn't necessarily apply to graduate admissions which are often decided by departmental committee, let alone to hiring at the Ph.D. level.

    But all that is irrelevant, isn't it? GAAP or no GAAP, the question still remains: Why should I find MIGS/CEU any more credible academically than the CA-approved Northern California Graduate Institute?


  11. #10
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BillDayson:

    By university admissions officers at least. That doesn't necessarily apply to graduate admissions which are often decided by departmental committee, let alone to hiring at the Ph.D. level.

    But all that is irrelevant, isn't it? GAAP or no GAAP, the question still remains: Why should I find MIGS/CEU any more credible academically than the CA-approved Northern California Graduate Institute?

    The two references are reflective of the country's educational system, which--properly--includes the CEU. This is no different that using a directory of accredited institutions to check up on a U.S. school rather than go directly to the accrediting agency itself. (I personally checked up on the CEU with the Mexican Ministry of Education 's representative at the Mexican Embassy.)

    What you find credible or not is your own business. But degrees from Mexican universities are considered comparable to those issued by U.S. schools, and all the hand-wringing over that fact--and the specious comparisons to unaccredited schools won't change that.

    I've decided to back out of this--and similar--debates over nothing. They don't shed any more light on the subject than already available. There is no way, nor reason, to change anyone's mind about this, so it certainly isn't worth trying. I've posted separately what is now my standard answer regarding MIGS and the CEU. It includes all I've had to say in the past about this subject.


    Rich Douglas

  12. #11
    BillDayson is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
    The two references are reflective of the country's educational system, which--properly--includes the CEU. This is no different that using a directory of accredited institutions to check up on a U.S. school rather than go directly to the accrediting agency itself.
    Any credibility that a listing of American accredited institutions has depends in turn on the credibility of the underlying accreditation process itself.

    This is not theology here, and the GAAP references are not sacred scriptures that must be believed on faith.

    What you find credible or not is your own business. But degrees from Mexican universities are considered comparable to those issued by U.S. schools, and all the hand-wringing over that fact--and the specious comparisons to unaccredited schools won't change that.
    There you go again: Just have faith. But if I have faith in Nuevo Leon, why shouldn't I also have faith in California?

    Nobody doubts that there are many excellent universities in Mexico. But the question is: Is MIGS one of them? (Yes, CEU grants the degrees, but MIGS actually provides the faculty and instruction, and guides and assesses the student's work.) And more generally: Is the sort of scrutiny that MIGS received sufficient to identify only those institutions that are operating at an RA standard?

    The point is this: Many substandard universities are on a never-ending quest for accreditation havens. In the last few years, we have seen a whole array of them: St. Kitts, South Dakota, Norfolk Island, the Fallon Piute reservation and recently Malawi. Even the University of Liverpool has been tapped. So why not the CEU and Nuevo Leon?

    MIGS was founded by people who might be described as ethically-challenged (selling internet get-rich-quick schemes and pre-written term papers). MIGS declined to follow the normal accreditation process in its home country, and instead produced a form of "accreditation" that nobody has ever seen before, arguing that it is *just as good as* regional accreditation.

    Well, the burden of proof in demonstrating that is on them. The whole point of accreditation is credibility. That's what it means. If something is new and untried, then it has to be carefully explained and its credibility established.

    In MIGS' case, that normal responsibility is only increased by the ethical cloud that MIGS began under. There is a real suspicion that MIGS went to Mexico in search of an accreditation haven and, by the grace of GAAP, to find a back door into Rich's beloved scriptures.

    That's why I pursue this point. If we are to believe that MIGS is anything more than a state-approved school with attitude, some evidence has to be produced that the standards that Nuevo Leon applied in examining MIGS are stricter than those California uses in examining its own state-approved schools.

    Appeals to GAAP at this point are only circular reasoning. You can't use GAAP to justify the credibility of Nuevo Leon's standards if GAAP in turn defers to those standards.



  13. #12
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
    The two references are reflective of the country's educational system, which--properly--includes the CEU. This is no different that using a directory of accredited institutions to check up on a U.S. school rather than go directly to the accrediting agency itself. (I personally checked up on the CEU with the Mexican Ministry of Education 's representative at the Mexican Embassy.)

    What you find credible or not is your own business. But degrees from Mexican universities are considered comparable to those issued by U.S. schools, and all the hand-wringing over that fact--and the specious comparisons to unaccredited schools won't change that.

    I've decided to back out of this--and similar--debates over nothing. They don't shed any more light on the subject than already available. There is no way, nor reason, to change anyone's mind about this, so it certainly isn't worth trying. I've posted separately what is now my standard answer regarding MIGS and the CEU. It includes all I've had to say in the past about this subject.


    Rich Douglas
    The shorter boilerplate:

    1. MIGS has been a poorly executed effort.
    2. The CEU is a recognized Mexican university. There is no question about this.
    3. Such recognition is widely accepted as comparable to regional accreditation.
    3. Degrees from Mexican universities enjoy widespread acceptance and equivalence in the U.S.
    4. What I opine about--which is little--is of no matter. It is sad when someone reduces his/her point to the person instead of the issue(s).
    5. The facts are not in serious dispute.

    Perhaps when someone (even me?) has something more to add, there will be something more said. Sadly, I suspect instead it will be the same old stuff, over and over again. Who needs it?

    "Write when you find work." (Who said that )

    Rich Douglas

  14. #13
    DaveHayden is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BillDayson:


    That's why I pursue this point. If we are to believe that MIGS is anything more than a state-approved school with attitude, some evidence has to be produced that the standards that Nuevo Leon applied in examining MIGS are stricter than those California uses in examining its own state-approved schools.
    Unfortunately MIGS is a good step BELOW Cal. State Approved Schools. Remember CEU is a lower level school that has never offered Phd's before. State Aproved schools have at least been through an accreditation process MIGS/CEU Phd program have not. I admire Rich's adventuresome attitude but I think for most MIGS remains a extremely poor choice.



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  15. #14
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by BillDayson:

    (snipped)
    In MIGS' case, that normal responsibility is only increased by the ethical cloud that MIGS began under. There is a real suspicion that MIGS went to Mexico in search of an accreditation haven and, by the grace of GAAP, to find a back door into Rich's beloved scriptures.

    (snipped)

    Sorry, one other thing. I know for a fact that this is exactly what happened. (Not the "beloved scriptures" part. It is foolish to ignore the research in this area, but someone with an agenda like this is likely to opt to ignore the facts.) The owners of MIGS shopped around to find a school that would partner their effort to establish a nonresidential program leading to the award of master's and doctoral degrees. So?

    I don't know what the Mexican authorities did in their determination to include MIGS in the CEU's approval. But they did. And it is exactly this approval that enjoys widespread acceptance in the U.S. Crying about it doesn't change it, no matter how much you don't like it. But since you asked the questions, I'm sure you will grace us with the answers, when you find them. Until then....

    (Oh, by the way, they went to Belize first. Does that help?)

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  17. #15
    Rich Douglas is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by DaveHayden:
    Unfortunately MIGS is a good step BELOW Cal. State Approved Schools. Remember CEU is a lower level school that has never offered Phd's before. State Aproved schools have at least been through an accreditation process MIGS/CEU Phd program have not. I admire Rich's adventuresome attitude but I think for most MIGS remains a extremely poor choice.


    Ah, but for everything there is a first time. Would you rather go to an accredited school like Touro University Internation, offering doctorates for the first time (and where the home campus doesn't)? Or does the 25 or so years of operaton behind California Coast University give you more confidence? Either way, your choice.

    Funny, that still doesn't change the distinct possibility that you're right. But it's for the wrong reasons. It isn't the marketability of the degree that should cause doubts, it is the conduct of MIGS.

    Rich Douglas, who just might know what he's talking about.

  18. #16
    Tom Head is offline Registered User
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    Cool

    BlackWolf, I've got to say my feelings on this issue are mixed. I know I've emailed you at least twice about the issue of doing a Ph.D. in gerontology , made some suggestions, and received no response.

    That said, here are my thoughts:

    1) Let's bear in mind that the MIGS Ph.D. in gerontology is a Ph.D. in psychology with emphasis in gerontology --correct me if I'm wrong, folks. And is the concentration even listed on the diploma? This became a very important issue during the 2 minutes, 15 seconds when I considered MIGS' Ph.D. in spiritual psychology . The idea of doing a Ph.D. in spiritual psychology is tempting. The idea of doing a course-based Ph.D. in psychology with emphasis in spiritual psychology doesn't do a whole lot for me. If I'm going to go that route, I may as well do a general research-based Ph.D. in psychology and focus *all* of the curriculum on spiritual psychology ; it would seem to have about the same effect, in the long run, and I wouldn't have to do as much in the general field of psychology .

    2) I may be mistaken, but from what I remember of the MIGS site, I think the Ph.D. in psychology -- with any specialization -- is listed explicitly as "non-counselling." If this is true (and I'm not entirely sure that it is), then what you're talking about, in effect, is an academic Ph.D. that won't get you licensure -anywhere-, because it wouldn't be designed as a licensure-track program.

    3) I dissed Northcentral University something fierce, but they *do* offer an online Ph.D. in psychology for probably not-much-more than MIGS, and they -do- seem to be well on their way to achieving regional candidacy. Wait a month or two until the North Central Association gives official word, but if it advances to candidacy, it might in fact be a better buy than MIGS.

    4) It's worth bearing in mind that MIGS is not Satan. I imagine there are situations where an online doctorate earned through the new and badly marketed U.S. branch of an obscure Mexican school may be useful. If yours is one of those situations, you're not sinning or something by earning a Ph.D. from MIGS/CEU. Heck, you might get more mileage out of it than I get out of my research Ph.D., and you certainly should be able to get by with a shorter dissertation. But it's your own risk to take, of course.

    Good luck.


    Peace,

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    Tom Head
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