Heriot-Watt MBA: text-only format ends; in future, online support for all courses

From Edinburgh Business School news letter:

"From January 1, 2004, text-only courses will no longer be available. The MBA will consist of the text course augmented with the online learning features ..." which provide "... online support, interaction with other students and with Faculty. All self-study students will receive the course texts and have access to the learning websites.

This means that students will be able to:

- Post questions to Edinburgh Business School Faculty and have a response within 72 hours.

... etc ..."

 

One minor clarification.

The EBS MBA (and DBA) package is fully online from January 2004 and all packages include a printed copy of the MBA Text.

We do not believe in telling anybody how to study, so if a student does not wish to use the online materials they may rely solely on the printed text as before. The exams are the same as they have always been.

The difference is only that it is the online package (with the printed text) that they purchase.

 

...and the cost per course rises $400 to $1,200, and the exam fees to $100. But at $9,100 to $11,700 for the full MBA, it remains the least expensive in The Economist's "World's Best MBA's" guide.

 

Can you tell us anything about what proportion of students who enrol in the MBA by distance, complete it? Is it the nearly 33% suggested by Michael Lloyd in this message?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bfotq2%24gicse%241%40ID-191324.news.uni-berlin.de

Was it ever the 4% alleged by Les Snell?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eWH1Jdas9GA.282%40upnetnews05

 

Increase is from $900 to $1,200.

 

Mr. Israel, you may want to post this very same question on the Watercooler at http://forums.delphiforums.com/hwmba/. I would be most interested in any updated data on the graduation rate, although any figures not directly provided by the school would need to be taken with a grain of salt, depending on the methodology used to obtain the data.

Regards,

Michael Lloyd
Mill Creek, Washington USA

 

In the case of those attributed to Les Snell, this is decidedly true. Mr. Snell was the proprietor of the notorious diploma mill Monticello University.

 

Wow. What a response to a simple announcement about the delivery of our distance learning MBA (the second largest in the world - FT table).

I have no idea who "Snell" is but a 4 per cent completion rate would require 100,000 to be in the MBA programme constantly and I suspect he or she is talking (can I use, under the guidance notes the word "rubbish"? No. OK) with, then, numerical inexactitude. (OK?) Incidentally, who was the King James who awarded the Royal Charter to Heriot-Watt in 1821, according to Snell? No such King at the time - the last King James was overthrown by William of Orange in the late 17th century); also, for the record, it was Queen Elizabeth II who awarded her Royal Charter through the UK government to Heriot-Watt in 1966.

Just over 1,000 MBA students graduate each year, most completing in 3 years - range 18 months to 5 years, with a long tail of people taking 7-9 years. Hence calculating the completion rate is difficult - I know as we tried it a year or more ago and came up with different answers, but their range was between 38 and 60 per cent. Bearing in mind our highly rigorous tough but fair exam regime (9 x 3 hour exams, closed book, invigilated by an independent agency, usually the British Council, no choice of questions, graded at EBS, Externally Examined by senior faculty from other British Universities, one resit only in any subject, and with no grade inflation - a steady 7 per cent getting Distinctions) we do not expect all who join in to meet the standards. But no student need invest more than the cost of one course to decide whether they can complete the course.

 

> Just over 1,000 MBA students graduate each year,
> [...] calculating the completion rate is difficult - I know as we
> tried it a year or more ago and came up with different answers,
> but their range was between 38 and 60 per cent.

Thank you for the response.

Are the above figures (>1000 and 38%-60%) for distant students only? How do they compare with the figures for resident students? And were the figures about the same in 1998 (the date of Snell's message)?

 

Again speaking solely as a graduate of the EBS MBA program not privy to the school's data, it is my belief, based on the comments made on the Watercooler, that the completion rate for the distance learning program has risen in recent years.

If this is indeed true, I wonder if it can be accounted solely by the larger number of students. Or are the people who post on the Watercooler just more active and vocal about completing the program?

Regards,

Michael Lloyd
Mill Creek, Washington USA

 

Bear in mind that Snell is not amongst our sharpest.

My suspicion is that his 4% came from the reported 70% pass rate per course. 9 courses required, so overall pass rate is 0.7^9 = 0.04. No need to explain the error in such a calculation.

 

The completion rates as estimates are for distance learning students, i.e., off campus from EBS.

The range is caused by the assumptions one makes: "live" students defined as those who have sat an exam in past 12 months, 15 months, 18, months, 2 years, etc. Some people sit on completing their nine degree courses with 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to go. Some sit one and seven - (7) - years later apply for their second exam, and so on.

Number graduating has been increasing in last four years as Michael indicates, causing problems of space at the Edinburgh only graduations, hence we are graduating now in Malaysia and Trinidad - next year in China.

I am not sure why all these questions ar ebing asked and fear trespassing on the patience of colleague on the Board as I do not like to be accused of 'shiling' (?), or marketing, etc. As I have said before I do not post here in the expectation or the intention of seeking recruits but of contributing to the dl community.

Last comment. The Mr or Miss Snell figure has NEVER been true in any respect and is so far out as to be an "inexactitude", otherwise known as rubbish. I have been involved in all aspects of this programme as a professor since it started in 1991. Of course, that is my word against Snell's and readers may make their own judgement on our mutual veracity or lack of it (said with the greatest respect to Snell who is, er, misinformed or wildly guessing). The first in excusable - we can all be wrong some of the time, but the latter is less so.

 

Professor Kennedy,

I was wondering how many hours of study time is needed per week, if a student wants to complete the EBS MBA in 18 months?

Bo

 

To complete the EBS MBA in 18 months probably requires fulltime attention, as that is about how long the FT students take; PT takes 30 months and the average by Distance Learning is 3 years. In all cases there are variations, largest variations, of course, are in the DL segment of students.

In all UK Masters degrees, the formal minimum is 1,800 hours, or 200 per course for the 9 course MBA. Hence, an 18-month target requires 100 hours a month (25 a week).

Is this feasible? Yes, but it is not common. There are four exam Diets a year, and subjects can be taken in any order or sequence, with the proviso, or recommendation, that Strategic Planning is taken last.

As ever we do not believe in telling students how to study. A lot depends on their commitment, dedication and ability.

 

Professor Kennedy wrote:

> Incidentally, who was the King James who awarded the
> Royal Charter to Heriot-Watt in 1821, according to Snell? No
> such King at the time - the last King James was overthrown by
> William of Orange in the late 17th century); also, for the record,
> it was Queen Elizabeth II who awarded her Royal Charter
> through the UK government to Heriot-Watt in 1966.

Snell's fantasy says: "The Royal Charter granted in 1821 by King James to Heriot-Watt University was done because King James was financially indebted to James Heriot."

Hmm, was that before or after James Heriot wrote It Shouldn't Happen to a Vet?

The truth is interesting, though. George Heriot (1563-1624) was royal goldsmith to King James (VI of Scotland, I of England, 1566-1625). "Apart from the making and procuring of jewellery for the King and Queen, and for the crowds of nobles who followed their extravagance, Heriot was Royal Pawnbroker and Moneylender - his royal patrons pledging their jewels as security." He bequeathed £23,625 to found George Heriot's Hospital in Edinburgh, which merged in 1885 with the Watt Institution to form Heriot-Watt College, which became Heriot-Watt University in 1966.
http://www.hw.ac.uk/archive/gheriot.htm
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurefirst1108.html

 

Thanks for the clarification Mark. Coincidentally, I spoke with my colleague, Professor Patrick O'Farrell, who, among other things, is just completing the official history of the University and he confirmed your information but asked me to make it clear that it was the merger of the Watt Institute with the George Heriot Hospital Trust that formed the Heriot-Watt Watt College.

The difference is significant because George-Heriot's School still exists in Edinburgh in its magnificent 17th century building, though after the Trust was split up, the School became a fee paying school, no longer for orphan children and the children of the poor but for the privileged children of Edinburgh's middle classes (still is today). So, some of George Heriot's School graduates today might also go to Heriot-Watt University to do their Bachelor degrees. Not bad for an initial investment of GBP23,000 three centuries ago!

 

I hope Professor O'Farrell's history won't overlook the fact that Heriot used to carry a pocket full of coins, which he would distribute to the poor as he went about, hence his nickname of "Jinglin' Geordie."

 

And I would add then when I was on campus in Edinburgh for graduation in June 2000, one of the pubs in the Student Union Building has that very name albeit the possessive: Jinglin' Geordies. Excellent Guinness on tap there, by the way.

Regards,

Michael Lloyd
Mill Creek, Washington USA

 

George Heriot inspired the character Jingling Geordie in Sir Walter Scott’s 1843 novel, Fortunes of Nigel. There are also:

* Jinglin' Geordie, "A musical play celebrating the generosity of George Heriot written and composed by Martin Franssen", including a song "When Jinglin' Geordie Jingles"
http://www.george-heriots.com/pupils/ActivitiesClubs/Summaries/Drama/Jinglin%20Geordie/JingGeor.htm

* at least 2 traditional Scottish dances, a reel and a jig, named "Jingling Geordie"
http://www.dancilla.com/search.asp?page=517&COID=33

* "The Jinglin' Geordie", a 1995 song about a considerably less reputable character by a group called The Whisky Priests
http://www.whiskypriests.co.uk/lyrics/jinglingeordie.htm

* "Jingling Geordie's Hole", a 1986 science fiction short story by Ian Watson

King James (son of Mary Queen of Scots) is perhaps best remembered for the King James Version or Authorized Version of the Bible.

 

Mark: King James (son of Mary Queen of Scots) is perhaps best remembered for the King James Version or Authorized Version of the Bible.

John:
Traditional Scottish trivia question: whose name appears first in the Bible?

Jamie the Saxt (James the Sixth), whom the English unaccountably insist on calling James the First.