City and Guilds

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Laser100, Sep 9, 2003.

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  1. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    The United Kingdom is a leader in non-traditional education. The City and Guilds Institution of London is a legitimate way to establish a degree level education without a traditional classroom.
    The problem is this body is not well known in America and it might not be acknowledge without educating a potential employer.

    The United Kingdom also has peer evalution degree levels conducted by approved bodies of the British Engineering Council. If an individual establishes a Charter Engineering (CEng) status they will be recognized by Washington Accord members. The United States is a participant of this Accord.

    Proof of equivalent stature maybe established by providing a copy of the National Science Foundation's (NSF) and The US. Department of Education's report on "Mapping The World of Education, The Comparative Data Base" by E Stephen Hunt, PH.D.
    This is available on the National Science Foundations website for free. You should also include a copy of the Washington Accord Agreement in your proof documents.

    Disclaimer: This information is provide in good faith and is accurate to the best of my knowledge. I do not guarantee that all employers will acknowledge this route of education. Proceed with this path at your own risk.
     
  2. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    Traditionally City and Guilds has been engaged in tech and trade related examinations. As as skilled craftsman and having been apprenticed in Britain my trade certification consists of two components. The first being my deed of apprenticeship (undertaken over five years in industry) and the second being my City and Guilds certificate (the written component of the apprenticeship.)

    When I applied to do a BEd at Brock University, Ontario, the admissions tutors were more impressed by my City and Guilds than they were with my BA degrees. Needless to say I was accepted. I now teach high school my main area being machine shop.

    Roy Maybery
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2003
  3. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Hmm. My City & Guilds Electrical Installation part 1 (c1968) got me a derisive look and a candy bar from US college admissions. Then again, the HNC and HND did not fair much better. Canada, eh? Nobody told me. What you don't know can hurt you.


    Which reminds me of one of the risks of over-prescribing SSRIs to the elderly . . .

    "As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. but there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know We don't know."
    Donald Rumsfeld 12 February last year at the DoD
    _________________________________________

    Lawrie Miller
    http://bain4weeks.com
     
  4. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    I completed a five year City & Guilds course in the UK, just prior to completing a six year apprenticeship (those were the days). A year later I obtained the C&G Full Technological Certificate - an impressive title, which came with an impressive certificate. We arrived in New Zealand soon after this and this qualification was held in high esteem (possibly far higher than HNC or HND) and opened the door to numerous opportunities - tool design engineering, chief design engineer, DL tutor in a wide variety of subjects, etc..
    In the early 1980's City & Guilds launched a new award - the LICENTIATESHIP AWARD - in recognition of education, training and empolyment, and the qualifying letters LCGI were awarded, along with another impressive certificate, which still hangs proudly on my office wall.
    City & Guilds has held a Royal Charter since 1878 and is one of the foremost groups involved in education, not just in the UK but in many other countries also.
    Dr Duck :)
     
  5. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    On its merits, doubt that. Here is a partial listing of relative academic level of attainment. This is in line with my recall.

    C&G Full Technological Certificate is about ONC/OND level approximate academic standard = GCE A-level

    and the LICENTIATESHIP AWARD is about the level of one year of university study.


    Sources

    UK Department of Health
    Credential Hierarchy including City & Guilds

    1 Degree/degree level qualification (including higher degree)
    2 Teaching qualification
    3 Nursing qualifications SRN, SCM, SEN, RGN, RM, RHV, Midwife
    4 HNC/HND, BEC/TEC Higher, BTEC Higher/SCOTECH Higher **
    5 ONC/OND/BEC/TEC/BTEC not higher
    6 City and Guilds Full Technological Certificate ***
    7 City and Guilds Advanced/Final Level
    8 City and Guilds Craft/Ordinary Level
    9 A-levels/Higher School Certificate
    10 AS level

    ..............................................................................................

    UK Home of Official Statistics
    http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:v_0ZO2ZpGz8J:[url]www.statistics.gov.uk/Harmony/Appendices/AppendixF.asp+%22City+and+Guilds%22+HND+equivalencies&hl=en&ie=UTF-8[/url]


    Degree or Degree equivalent, and above
    Higher degree and postgraduate qualifications
    First degree (including B.Ed.)
    Postgraduate Diplomas and Certificates (including PGCE)
    Professional qualifications at degree level e.g. graduate member of professional institute, chartered accountant or surveyor
    NVQ or SVQ level 4 or 5

    Other Higher Education below degree level
    Diplomas in higher education & other higher education qualifications
    HNC, HND, Higher level BTEC **
    Teaching qualifications for schools or further education (below Degree level standard)
    Nursing, or other medical qualifications not covered above (below Degree level standard)
    RSA higher diploma

    A-level or equivalent
    AS level
    SCE Higher, Scottish Certificate Sixth Year Studies or equivalent
    NVQ or SVQ level 3
    GNVQ Advanced or GSVQ level 3
    OND, ONC, BTEC National, SCOTVEC National Certificate
    City & Guilds advanced craft, Part III (& other names)
    RSA advanced diploma

    ..................................................................................................

    City & Guilds web site

    City & Guilds Level Qualification Equivalent to:

    7 C&G Fellowship (FCGI) = Doctorate

    6 C&G Membership (MCGI) = Masters' degree

    5 C&G Graduateship (GCGI) = 1st degree

    4 C&G Licentiateship (LCGI) = 1st year of university and (Full Technological Certificate if it includes managerial experience) ***

    3 C&G Advanced Diploma, Technician Diploma = GCE advanced ("A") level


    Lawrie Miller
    http://bain4weeks.com
    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2003
  6. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    Obviously I agree with what Laurie has to say, but who was I, in the early 1960's, to disagree with the people in NZ. The fact is, however, that in the engineering industry the C&G FTC was really a far more useful certificate than either the HNC or the HND, as it was more practically orientated and we were taught some extremely useful subjects; TOOL DESIGN, WORKSHOP TECHNOLOGY, APPLIED MATHEMATICS, APPLIED SCIENCE and we had five years manufacturing engineering items ranging from scribing blocks to rockets!
    My group had a number of Rolls Royce apprentices from Hucknall, who spent much of their time on rocket design and propulsion.
    Incidently, I was recently given the opportunity to apply for Membership of C&G (MCGLI), but now in retirement mode I don't think I will apply. But anyone who has completed a C&G certificate always has great respect for a great organisation.
    Dr Duck :)
     
  7. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    PS. Forgot to thank Laurie for his very informative post on UK qualifications.
    Dr Duck :)
     
  8. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Thank you. Intent was not to degrade the standing of C&G qualifications. It was pretty much universally true, that those with whom I worked who held such credentials were competent exponents of their craft.

    Those who lectured and instructed me at Springburn College of Engineering in the late Sixties, held advanced C&G certifications, were extremely knowledgeable, and had the remarkable ability to quote from any page of the relevant IEE regulations (a comprehensive tome) when challenged to do so.

    Lawrie Miller
    http://bain4weeks.com
     
  9. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    Degree is best.

    In the UK the City and Guilds Institution of London is well known. The respect of this institution varies on geographic location.
    Check your local educational specialist to determine if it will be of benefit to you in your area.

    Keep in mind, a degree is always better than a certification or Guilds endorsement. Thomas Edison College, and Excelsior are the better way to go in the United States.

    However, many people do not have the time or the means to attend college. The City and Guilds body is there to help the people in situations such as these.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2003
  10. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    C&G advertises itself as a vocational and I believe it is more akin to DETC than RA -- It may prove difficult to get many credits towards a RA degree.
     
  11. RKanarek

    RKanarek Member

    Greetings.

    I'm a bit confused. Laser100 repeatedly wrote the following:
    What confused me is the relevance of the statement (I'm inclined to believe the statement itself.) Considering that engineering is licensed at the state level in the US, what difference does it make if the US federal government recognizes a UK (or other) certification?

    As I understand it, a professional licensure board of one state is not obligated to recognize a PE in another state (although they usually do, once cash changes hands <g>). Even at the federal level, when shopping for an engineer, it is common for the various federal bureaucracies to add stipulations to their "vacancy announcements" which are inconsistent with "Office of Personal Management" decrees.

    It would seem to me that, if one were to find oneself in a position of having to rely on the US federal government and an obscure treaty to defend one's certification(s), one would be better off searching for a new occupation. Am I missing something?


    Cordially,
    Richard Kanarek
     
  12. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    ABET = political monopoly

    I know what you are saying about the Washington Accord. You don't want to put all your
    eggs in that basket. I'm actually attending Indiana State University in Electronics
    Technology. The program is NAIT accredited. The NAIT accreditation is not
    "Engineering" it is "Technical Management."

    The title "Engineer" is a political monopoly in the United States controlled by a business
    which owns the ABET accreditation. The ABET system is a country club bureaucracy
    that lines the money pockets of Universities and fellow graduate members. If the USA engineering
    educational system was truly legitimate it would allow equal access to the
    NCEES PE examinations for all Bachelor Degrees regardless of the accreditation.

    Does the NCEES PE exam test for knowledge or club memberships? The holder of a
    non-ABET Bachelors Degree is required to take an additional 36 credit hours of class
    work before they are allowed to sit for the PE exam. They are afraid that a non -ABET
    person might pass their PE exam and undermine the privileges of those who paid into
    the ethnocentric ABET system.

    The UK engineering registration system is open to anyone that feels they can provide
    evidence they have the knowledge and experience. They don’t ask people if they went to club ABET.
    The UK system has peer review, not club review.

    Can we hire some UK engineers to fix our ABET power grid? We still don't know why New York and other states went dark. WE have something to learn.
     
  13. RKanarek

    RKanarek Member

    Dear Laser100:

    Of course, I agree with most of what you recently posted. Indeed, I've gone on similar rants before. <g>

    It was the value, if any, of engineering certification from a "Washington Accord" member country, when the holder is in the USA, that piqued my interest. Was I correct in assuming that foreign engineering certification, even if otherwise impeccable, are of no practical value in the United States? Can a UK CEng, for example, even identify himself as an "engineer" in a US state with restrictive laws (http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_requirements/2003_survey_results/e_01.pdf)?

    Just curious.


    Cordially,
    Richard Kanarek

    P.S. Regarding the difficulties you seem to have encountered:
    New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die" state, allows almost anyone to take its EIT exam. Depending upon where you live (and you can always move), even becoming a non-ABET PE isn't impossible. Did you fully explore all your alternatives?
    http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_requirements/2003_survey_results/
    http://ppi2pass.com/
     
  14. Laser100

    Laser100 New Member

    The Washington Accord

    "The EC(UK) is the UK signatory to the Washington Accord - an agreement which provides a mechanism for mutual recognition between signatory bodies of Engineering education accreditation processes. Each member of the group of eight countries involved has expressed its confidence in the Quality Assurance processes of the other seven countries. By extension this leads to the effective mutual recognition of accredited Engineering Degree courses, and, generally, to exemption from the education requirement for practising in each of the signatory countries."

    This quote was a cut and paste from the Engineering Council's webpage.
     
  15. Tradgrad

    Tradgrad member

    Alternative Routes in UK
    Mature candidate
    If you cannot offer relevant formal qualifications but have gained the
    knowledge of fundamental engineering principles (equivalent to an
    engineer of similar age who has satisfied the educational requirements
    by an academic route) you may be offered this route to registration as
    a CEng or IEng.

    Work-based further learning
    If you have an accredited qualification but require further learning
    for registration in your chosen category, you can take an IEE-approved
    programme, provided by a university or an employer scheme.
    Alternatively you could aim to meet the requirement through a
    self-managed scheme or the Technical Report Route described below.

    Technical report route
    If you have met the Professional Development requirements for
    registration, you may be able to meet the educational requirements
    using the Technical Report route. This consists of a work-based
    technical report, specified by the Qualifications Assessment
    Committee, and an in-depth interview. This route is only available on
    recommendation by the IEE's Qualifications Assessment Committee.

    EC(UK) examinations
    EC(UK) examinations are often used to 'top-up' qualifications. The
    certificate is broadly equivalent to first year degree level; the
    graduate diploma approximates BEng (Hons) degree level; and the
    post-graduate diploma is considered to be at MEng level. EC(UK) Exams
    are particularly useful and appropriate for international candidates
    who need to do some educational top-up to their qualifications. The
    exams are conducted in many international centres overseas and there
    is tuition available in a number of countries.

    OU degrees
    The IEE recommends a particular study profile to achieve the
    educational requirements via OU (Open University) examinations.
    Contact the IEE for details.

    Local university examinations
    Sitting the final year examinations of an academic programme
    accredited for the type of registration you are seeking can be used as
    a top-up qualification but both the academic institution and the IEE
    must agree a 'menu' of subjects before you begin your studies.

    Mature candidate
    If you cannot offer relevant formal qualifications but have gained the
    knowledge of fundamental engineering principles (equivalent to an
    engineer of similar age who has satisfied the educational requirements
    by an academic route) you may be offered this route to registration as
    a CEng or IEng.

    CAR
    The Career Appraisal Route is another option available to older
    candidates without all the necessary qualifications and is appropriate
    to candidates with substantial work experience. You may be offered
    this route to registration.

    Higher degrees
    An MSc award gained through successful completion of examinations and
    a project may provide a route to meeting the requirements but one
    based solely on continuous assessment of course work is unlikely to be
    enough on its own.
    Post a follow-up to this message

    Message 2 in thread
    From: Michael ([email protected])
    Subject: Re: Alternative Routes - work based recognition in UK


    View this article only
    Newsgroups: alt.education.distance
    Date: 2003-09-10 10:37:28 PST


    [email protected] (Michael) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Alternative Routes in UK
    > Mature candidate
    > If you cannot offer relevant formal qualifications but have gained the
    > knowledge of fundamental engineering principles (equivalent to an
    > engineer of similar age who has satisfied the educational requirements
    > by an academic route) you may be offered this route to registration as
    > a CEng or IEng.
    >
    > Work-based further learning
    > If you have an accredited qualification but require further learning
    > for registration in your chosen category, you can take an IEE-approved
    > programme, provided by a university or an employer scheme.
    > Alternatively you could aim to meet the requirement through a
    > self-managed scheme or the Technical Report Route described below.
    >
    > Technical report route
    > If you have met the Professional Development requirements for
    > registration, you may be able to meet the educational requirements
    > using the Technical Report route. This consists of a work-based
    > technical report, specified by the Qualifications Assessment
    > Committee, and an in-depth interview. This route is only available on
    > recommendation by the IEE's Qualifications Assessment Committee.
    >
    > EC(UK) examinations
    > EC(UK) examinations are often used to 'top-up' qualifications. The
    > certificate is broadly equivalent to first year degree level; the
    > graduate diploma approximates BEng (Hons) degree level; and the
    > post-graduate diploma is considered to be at MEng level. EC(UK) Exams
    > are particularly useful and appropriate for international candidates
    > who need to do some educational top-up to their qualifications. The
    > exams are conducted in many international centres overseas and there
    > is tuition available in a number of countries.
    >
    > OU degrees
    > The IEE recommends a particular study profile to achieve the
    > educational requirements via OU (Open University) examinations.
    > Contact the IEE for details.
    >
    > Local university examinations
    > Sitting the final year examinations of an academic programme
    > accredited for the type of registration you are seeking can be used as
    > a top-up qualification but both the academic institution and the IEE
    > must agree a 'menu' of subjects before you begin your studies.
    >
    > Mature candidate
    > If you cannot offer relevant formal qualifications but have gained the
    > knowledge of fundamental engineering principles (equivalent to an
    > engineer of similar age who has satisfied the educational requirements
    > by an academic route) you may be offered this route to registration as
    > a CEng or IEng.
    >
    > CAR
    > The Career Appraisal Route is another option available to older
    > candidates without all the necessary qualifications and is appropriate
    > to candidates with substantial work experience. You may be offered
    > this route to registration.
    >
    > Higher degrees
    > An MSc award gained through successful completion of examinations and
    > a project may provide a route to meeting the requirements but one
    > based solely on continuous assessment of course work is unlikely to be
    > enough on its own.


    By the way IEE - Institution of Electrical - Electronics Engineers and
    IIE - Istitution of Incorporated Engineers are under Royal Charter in
    UK and their registration is recognized in EU and USA.

    In some EU countries a person can't work as an Engineer without proper
    registration.

    Chartered Engineer or Incorpoprated Engineer and Engineering
    Technician are designations - from Institutions with Royal Charter of
    GB - UK.

    So when a person applys for a job of an engineer as long as they are
    registered
    the employer asured that they get some one with legit credentials,
    degreed or not.

    Having a diploma or Certificate of Registered - Chartered Eng is more
    than just having a degree.
    Post a follow-up to this message
     

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