Excelsior developing an MBA program

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by calidris, Sep 9, 2003.

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  1. calidris

    calidris New Member

    I just saw a post at the Excelsior EPN website (only open to students and staff of Excelsior) that Excelsior is developing an MBA program that they expect to open in the next year or two. I sent a query to [email protected] asking for more information.
     
  2. alexadeparis

    alexadeparis New Member

    That is great news. I would seriously consider getting one from them. I was also thinking about their MLS, but decided it was too vague.
     
  3. Jallen2

    Jallen2 New Member

    I am glad to see that the educational opportunities of Excelsior are expanding. However, the utility of a MBA program from Excelsior is questionable. A significant portion of the benefits from receiving an MBA is from the relationships built at the school and the alumni network. Obviously these would be a non-issue. If one is doing it for the learning process (although I would argue other programs may offer better learning opportunities) or to fill a blank line on ones resume the opportunity from Excelsior is a great opportunity.

    Summary: Do not expect the traditional jump in earnings and promotions quoted in magazines about traditional MBA programs from the MBA program at Excelsior.
     
  4. Tel

    Tel New Member

    "A significant portion of the benefits from receiving an MBA is from the relationships built at the school and the alumni network. "

    You could make the same argument for all online MBA programs and for that matter many local B&M part time programs. I don't think you build significant relationships or an alumni network unless you attend full time on campus. I suspect that most people on this forum are looking educational alternatives to full time attendance at their local university/college.

    In my view an Excelsior MBA would carry no less weight or utility than any other online program. If you're not going to get a salary bump from a Excelsior MBA, then you're not likely to get one from attending Florida State or Set Hall either (both 100% online programs with good reputations).

    Bottom line: If you don't go to a top 25 program you're unlikely to see an immediate salary increase anyway.
     
  5. 9Chris

    9Chris New Member

    Originally posted by Jallen2

    Many times with a traditional MBA you also do not get a jump in earnings. It depends on the company and the individual.

    Why do you say it is questionable. Excelsior offering an MBA is long over due. Especially since here in NY, Excelsior is amoung a few schools that one can earn a degree online.

    This is never the case with distant learning.
     
  6. NNAD

    NNAD New Member

    I figured they would be expanding soon. Next I guess (hope) they get into the Doctorate business, preferably one for lifelong learners who are not necessarily interested in a traditional university teaching/research position. I would love to see a doctorate (DA, D Litt, etc.) in Liberal Studies, based upon thier MLS model.

    As a have mentioned before, a liberal arts DA/D Litt would fit in with the expanding graduate liberal arts courses offered by Excelsior, see the Drew University (traditional) D Litt program as a model of what the Excelsior liberal arts dept. could do.

    A DM for management could follow.

    There is a market for this... but maybe not a PhD market based upon the Excelsior philosophy. But with thier independence, they will grow even more.

    I bet AMU/APUS will beat them to it (a doctorate) when they get RA. Their course catalog has enough variety to fill up a military studies/national security related doctorate or PhD.

    But as of yet, it seems only the Union Institute offers any sort of American DL liberal arts doctorate.

    Do any insiders have any inside info or guesses for the future?
     
  7. oko

    oko New Member


    Says who? An MBA from Excelsior will just be as good as any other accredited MBA from anywhere. Getting ahead with a degree depends more on the individual not the school. An MBA is an MBA or a degree is a degree and is a degree whether online or not. I just finished reviewing (together with two other board members) some applicants for appointments to a prestigious agency. One of the candidates got his Bachelor degree from Excelsior. You know what? Where he got his degree was not an issue. He was considered along with others from the so called top tiers. He held his own is all I can say.
    As reviewed the Excelsior transcripts, it does not say it was an online only that it used to be Regents College until December 2001 (if I am not mistaken).

    The argument or idea of a degree’s utility or lack thereof because it was obtained through a particular medium or unless it has certain additional optional accreditation belongs only to this forum. It does not raise its head around me personally and the people I know nor is it an issue where I work and the agencies that I work for and I hold what many consider a prestigious job.

    I say go for it Excelsior and those school will meet their needs. If I were “shopping” for school for an MBA such an argument would not faze me one iota. You do not go to school for immediate gratification. Reward comes over time with a degree.

    Godwin
     
  8. Jallen2

    Jallen2 New Member

    I just wrote a long rambeling post in response to Godwin then realized that no one, including myself, would care to read it. My quick response post to follow…

    -----------------------------

    Numerous articles bring into question any advantages that MBA programs that are not in the top tier bring.

    You will find few individuals on your side if you claim a MBA from Harvard, Stanford, MIT, or Wharton, among others, are not more valuable then a MBA from Excelsior.

    You are correct that government agencies do not place much weight in where a degree was obtained, BUT correct me if I’m wrong a bachelor degree qualifies a person for a GS-7, Masters GS-9, and PhD GS-11. Translating that to dollar figures: GS-7 $29,037 (competitive with private sector), GS-9 $35,519 (not nearly competitive with private sector, and GS-11 $42,976 (is this a joke?).

    In conclusion, I stand by my old summary. That is “Do not expect the traditional jump in earnings and promotions quoted in magazines about traditional MBA programs from the MBA program at Excelsior.”
     
  9. oko

    oko New Member

     
  10. AV8R

    AV8R Active Member

    Re:
     
  11. oko

    oko New Member

    This old Newsweek article below may encourage those in any school or shopping for school. This is independent of the Washington, DC think tank study I stated in my earlier post. My point here is to encourage anyone to pursue an accredited college education through any mode of delivery in course demanded at the market place and see his or her earnings grow.
    At the end of the day, it is the individual that matters.
    Godwin

    The Worthless Ivy League?
    It's no guarantee of success. Podunk's competent grads will beat Princeton's incompetents.
    By Robert J. Samuelson
    Newsweek, November 1, 1999

    We all "know" that going to college is essential for economic success. The more prestigious the college, the greater the success. It's better to attend Yale or Stanford than, say, Arizona State. People with the same raw abilities do better and earn more by graduating from an elite school. The bonus flows (it's said) from better connections, brighter "peers," tougher courses or superior professors. Among many parents, the terror that their children won't go to the "right" college has supported an explosion of guidebooks, counselors and tutoring companies to help students in the admissions race.
    The trouble is that what everyone knows isn't true. Going to Harvard or Duke won't automatically produce a better job and higher pay. Graduates of these schools generally do well. But they do well because they're talented. Had they chosen colleges with lesser nameplates, they would (on average) have done just as well. The conclusion is that the Ivy League -- a metaphor for all elite schools -- has little comparative advantage. They may expose students to brilliant scholars and stimulating peers. But the schools don't make the students' success. Students create their own success; this makes the schools look good.

    Evidence of this comes in a new study by Alan Krueger, an economist at Princeton, and Stacy Berg Dale, a researcher at the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. Until now, scholarly studies had found that elite colleges lifted their graduates' incomes beyond their natural abilities. The bonus was about 3 percent to 7 percent for every 100 points of difference in SAT scores between schools. Suppose you go to Princeton and I go to Podunk; Princeton SAT scores average 100 points higher than Podunk's. After correcting for other influences (parents' income, race, gender, SAT scores, high-school rank), studies found that you would still earn a bit more. If I make $50,000, then you might make $53,500 (that's 7 percent).

    But Dale and Krueger suspected that even this premium -- not huge -- might be a statistical quirk. The problem, they write, "is that students who attend more elite colleges may have greater earnings capacity regardless of where they attend school." Characteristics important for admission "may also be rewarded in the labor market." What might these be? Discipline. Imagination. Ambition. Perseverance. Maturity. Some exceptional ability. Admissions officers may detect these characteristics from interviews or course difficulty (different from grade average). But earlier studies didn't capture these factors.

    To do so, Dale and Krueger examined the 1976 freshmen of 34 colleges. They ranged from Yale, Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore (highest in SAT scores) to Penn State and Denison University (lowest in scores). The SAT gap between top and bottom was about 200 points. Dale and Krueger knew which colleges had accepted and rejected these students as well as their future earnings. By 1995, male graduates with full-time jobs earned an average of $89,026; women earned $76,859.

    Dale and Krueger then compared graduates who had been accepted and rejected by the same (or similar) colleges. The theory was that admissions officers were ranking personal qualities, from maturity to ambition. Students who fared similarly would possess similar strengths; then, Dale and Krueger compared the earnings of these students -- regardless of where they went. There was no difference. Suppose that Princeton and Podunk accept you and me; but you go to Princeton and I go to Podunk. On average, we will still make the same. (The result held for blacks and whites, further weakening the case for race-based admission preferences. The only exception was poorer students, regardless of race; they gained slightly from an elite school.)

    The explanation is probably simple. At most colleges, students can get a good education if they try. "An able student who attends a lower tier school can find able students to study with," write Dale and Krueger. Similarly, even elite schools have dimwits and deadbeats. Once you're in the job market, where you went to college may matter for a few years, early in your career. Companies don't know much about young employment candidates. A shiny credential (an Ivy League degree) may impress. But after that, what people can or can't do counts for more. Skills grow. Reputations emerge. Companies prefer the competent from Podunk to the incompetent from Princeton.

    If you can't (or won't) take advantage of what Princeton offers, Princeton does no good. What students bring to college matters more than what colleges bring to students. The lesson has relevance beyond elite schools. As a society, we've peddled college as a cure for many ills. Society needs more skilled workers. So, send more students to college. College graduates earn much more than high-school graduates. So -- to raise incomes -- send more students to college. In that, we've succeeded. Perhaps three quarters of high-school graduates go to college, including community colleges.

    But half or more don't finish. A new study from the Department of Education ("College for All?") reports that these students achieve only modest gains in skills and income. What determines who finishes? In another report, Clifford Adelman -- a senior researcher at the Department of Education -- finds that the most powerful factor is the difficulty of high-school courses. And the finding is strongest for black and Hispanic students. Not having enough money (inadequate financial aid) explains few dropouts. Tough courses do more than transmit genuine skills. They provide the experience -- and instill the confidence -- of completing something difficult.

    How to motivate students to do their best? How to make high schools demanding while still engaging? How to transmit important values (discipline, resourcefulness, responsibility) to teenagers, caught in life's most muddled moment? These are hard questions for parents and society as a whole. If the answers were self-evident, we'd have already seized them. But going to college -- even Harvard -- is no shortcut.





    © 1999 Newsweek, Inc.
     
  12. Jallen2

    Jallen2 New Member

    I almost did not come back to this post thread, because I was afraid of the conversation degrading into insults and I am sure my posts would have pushed the result into that direction. Instead, I find that Godwin and I actually share the similar views. That view is that the college / university that one obtains a degree from matters much less then the qualities of the individual who obtains the degree. Godwin was kind enough to search out an article of a study that clearly supports this hypothesis.

    The one caveat to the survey is that it is dealing with undergraduate degrees. I contend that this is not the case with graduate degrees and especially true with MBA degrees. I would be very interested in finding research directly supporting or contradicting this contention, but just merely inspecting how those with MBA are recruited and find jobs provide significant support to this contention. After one obtains a bachelor degree, the student is left to find a degree. Sure there can be job fairs on campus, but except for a few rare exceptions, a student who turns in one’s resume at Harvard for GE is reviewed for a position in the same manner as a student from UoP who sent in their resume through the mail. The MBA job world is different. The internship after the first year provides a significant number with their employment after graduation. Unlike the open and free resume process after a bachelor degree, many companies will ONLY recruit from a few specific schools. Additionally, those who do not receive their employment through internships also find a significant hiring bias after graduation from these same companies AND find alumni to be KEY in finding positions.

    Summary: I agree that what university / college awards an individuals degree matters much less then most may think at least at the undergraduate level. However, for a MBA the university / college does matter A LOT. That said if one wants a MBA to fill in a blank on their resume or for personnel reasons Excelsior = GREAT, but if they expect a jump in responsibilities, change in career, increase in pay, … they should seriously think about it.

    [minor notes: www.dfas.mil will show the civilian pay scale. You are right that one only has to hold a position for a year before competing for the next level. However, GS-13 is as high as a practical individual can hope to achieve (beyond GS-15 is considered equivalent to a General in the military). Any salary survey will show that civil servants are under paid if they have beyond a bachelor degree, but as you point out this is only one aspect and ignores benefits, job security, etc…)]
     
  13. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I find the news of an impending Excelsior MBA very curious indeed.

    6 or 7 years ago, they spent a great deal of time and money developing an MBA.

    Then they sold the whole thing to a division of Pearson, I believe for a 7-figure amount (not including the pennies). Like the Heriot-Watt distance MBA, Pearson would do the marketing and Excelsior (then Regents) would run the academics and award the degree.

    But it was never offered, I know not why.

    Is this "new" one the same "old" one being revisited?

    If not, whatever happened to the other one, I wonder.
     
  14. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    Do you have any evidence to back this up, or is this just your opinion?

    While I don't know of any scientific studies regarding this aspect of DL, I don't really need it to refute your point. I know of at least one person who would say that a significant portion of the benefits that he received from his MBA were from the relationships built at the school. These relationships were built through online communications, much like this forum. Therefore, you statement that "this is never the case with distant(sic) learning" is incorrect.

    It may be that these relationships are easier to build in a face-to-face environment. Then again, maybe not. But until someone does a study on this (assuming it has not already been done), we can not accurately assess the benefits recieved from the relationships built in an online program versus a face-to-face program. However, I can say without a doubt that your assertion that students in a distance learning environment never enjoy such benefits is incorrect.

    And, again, using this forum as an example, I think it is clear that people can build significant professional relationships completely through online communication.

    Do you have any evidence to show that this is not the case? Or, if you really want to prove your point, to show that this is not possible?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2003
  15. 9Chris

    9Chris New Member

    WOW!!!!!!

    You've read more into my response than was necessary.

    Iam to tried to get into a heated debate, so let's just say its my opinion.
     
  16. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    Most people here have a serious interest in distance learning. When you make a statement that distance learing can never meet certain needs, you should expect to be asked to defend that assertion.

    Clearly, distance learning is not suited for everyone. But for many people, I'm quite sure that a good distance learning program is a realistic avenue for establishing professional relationships.
     
  17. 9Chris

    9Chris New Member

    You are assuming that I am not serious about distance learning, and since you know nothing about what I have done, let's just leave this subject alone, and say people have different opinions.
     
  18. oko

    oko New Member

     

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