US DL JD vs. UK DL JD

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by romns116, Sep 2, 2003.

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  1. romns116

    romns116 New Member

    I'm sure this has been discussed here before, so forgive my naivety. But I'm seriously considering law school, but the JD would have to be earned via DL. That being said:

    Which DL JD would provide the best marketability and upward mobility into IP law (IP program at an ABA school)?

    1. US JD's (Concord, NWCU,OakBrook,etc.)
    or
    2. UK Jd's (Univ. of London, BAU,etc.)


    I've read a little about the JD programs offered abroad, but I wasn't clear on how the transition into practicing in the US would work. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Anthony Ciolli

    Anthony Ciolli New Member

    I'm definitely not the authority on this, but the impression I've gotten from the ABA website is that a foreign law degree, whether earned in residence or through DL, won't qualify you to take the bar exam in most states, and the states that would allow you would only do it if you're a licensed lawyer in the foreign country who has practiced for a few years. However some MIGHT allow you to do it if you got an ABA accredited LLM afterwards (once again don't quote me on this).

    A few months ago I believe someone posted a link to a table at the ABA website that broke down the DL degree and foreign degree policies for all 50 states. If you search the archives for it you should be able to find it.

    As for DL American JDs, I believe the only state that will let you take the bar exam with a DL JD is California.
     
  3. alexadeparis

    alexadeparis New Member

    I have thoroughly checked into this because I plan on entering law school myself next fall. Bottom line, unless you plan on practicing law in California, there are NO workarounds involving DL that are going to allow you to sit for the bar in the state of your choice. There are a few states that allow your to learn by apprenticeship, but the apprenticeships take longer than law school, and have a lot of rules, and I don't live in one of those states anyway.

    So, I resigned myself to having absolutely no life for 4 years as I work full time and go to part time law school at night at an ABA accredited school. Something tells me that it is going to be worth it. I think that the main reason that DL JD's will never happen is that there has to be an open exchange of ideas in a contemporaneous format, something that DL cannot accomplish. Just my two cents.
     
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    There is no such thing as a UK J.D. The University of London offers an external LL.B. which is a "qualifying degree" for the practice of law as a barrister or solicitor in England but the degrees are not equivalent nor do they serve the same purposes in their respective jurisdictions.

    The J.D. leads to the Bar examination then to practice. The UK LL.B. leads to a one year academic prractice course followed by two years in articles for solicitors and 12 to 18 months' pupillage for barristers before either may practice.

    One should, if at all possible, obtain the first degree in law from a school in the jurisdiction where one proposes to practice.
     
  5. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    As a student with the Uni of London Law program, I would advise you to seek a school within the United States if you intend to practise there. This would be the easier approach if it is feasible.

    It would seem that all jurisdictions have a post degree process that has to be undertaken before legal practice. In the United States, it takes the form of bar examinations. In most Commonwealth jurisdictions, it is professional training, perhaps, an "apprenticeship" to meet the same ends.

    Effectively, the external Uni of London degree is the reverse of the American system. The American system seems to use the education process in the ABA schools to develop applied legal skills. The external student from the Uni of London uses the professional process to develop these skills.

    The American bar examinations (from my limited knowledge) examines legal knowledge and reasoning by written analysis of legal questions . The Uni of London degree tests this ability in the same way. The pass rates are, interestingly, comparative.

    Perhaps, the ABA might allow the development of a similar professional process for DL students there to acquire the oral argument and applied legal skills? this might be a less expensive process for DL students and meet ABA requirements.

    If you should go the Uni of London route, be aware that the examinations are awesome. Some people I know, who were doing the same exams as myself, failed at least one subject. I was spared that fate, but I felt like I was on the receiving end of a 16 round bout with Mike Tyson and lived in fear until I received my results. No "done deals" there!

    Good luck with whatever route you take. None will be easy.

    Ebbwvale
     
  6. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    There have been a number of threads about JD degrees by DL in the past, all of them interesting to me though I have no training in the law or intention to obtain this training. Occasionally, someone posts the following, "Why would anyone want to earn a JD degree (or the international equivalent, roughly speaking) if they can not be admitted to the bar? I would only want to say that there are plenty of jobs for people who have a knowledge of the law, even if they do not/can not present cases in court. I have an interest in in the field of international human rights and this is a field where a JD would be a huge credential (BTW, because of the international flavor of this field, a law degree from a non-US school is no impediment).

    Also, Ebbwvale - I'd be interested in hearing more of your U of L experiences. They seem to offer such great programs but we rarely get to hear from current students.
    Jack
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2003
  7. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    Jack,
    I have successfully completed a Masters Degree in Public Policy and Administration by distance learning with an Australian University and I am enrolled in the U of L law degree for precisely the reason you have mentioned. My specific area of interest is in the human rights area.

    The Uni of London has been great with the supply of supporting material in law books and case studies. They also supply an excellent study guide.

    The difficulty for students is the lack of interaction. There is no tutorial support by way student/lecturer interaction. This can be overcome by accessing one of the supporting colleges that offer tuition for the degree. You have to pay separately for this support as they are not part of the Uni of London. They have been set up by private providers to service the degree program of U of L. I didn't do this but I think I might consider it for the next bout with the examiners.

    The U of L does not recognise any difference between internal and external students when it comes to the examinations. They are very taxing. The one difficulty for most is that you have to sit for at least three exams in the one examination period. This creates difficulty for working students such as me. There isn't any submitted work other than the examinations. You rise or fall on those alone.
    This is very difficult to deal with in that you don't have a gauge to measure your knowledge until you have the examination results. If you taken a "wrong bus" on a topic then you can get blown out of the water in the examination.

    The upside of this is that you know when you pass you have met a significant intellectual challenge and reached an internationally recognised standard of excellence. I think the key to success is networking with other students if possible. Mutual support helps psychologically, if not in other more tangible ways.

    The programme is very demanding. No quarter will be given but you will walk away with a degree of international standing.

    regards,
    Ebbwvale
     
  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    ebbwvale:

    I received official notification that my LL.M. registration (and course fees) had been accepted about six weeks ago. How long will it take the University of London to send me my materials? I'd like to get STARTED, already!

    The LL.M. program requires the examinee to take only TWO examinations at a time but they say that the "standard is higher". Well, we'll see. At least I don't need to learn an entirely new way of thinking as the LL.B. student must do, but rather master a highly technical field of law. Also, the American residental law school works in precisely the same way; one's entire grade depends on one's performance in a single, three hour written essay examination, so the model is familiar to me.

    Still, I'm a bit nervous!
     
  9. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    Nosborne:

    Welcome aboard. I am still in steerage but at least you are on the upper deck.
    I'm sure that you will enjoy the course and with the legal skills you already have you may find it easier. You must have had good grades in the JD to be accepted for the LLM. I think the legal analysis required at that level would be considerable. Your workload may well be of Mount Everest proportions. They are heavy hitters.

    In terms of the delivery of material, they are usually fairly quick. I suffer a little because I am in Australia and the delivery time is greater.

    regards,
    Ebbwvale
     
  10. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Ebbwvale - Thanks for your reply. Your description is exactly as others have described. I've imagined going back and doing the Birkbeck philosophy program once I'm through with my current project (please note momentary optimistic attitude :D )
    BTW, good luck to both you and Nosborne in your studies.
    Jack
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2003
  11. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I don't actually know WHAT they looked at. They wanted official transcripts as well as British Counsel notorized copies of my BA and JD diplomas and they also wanted to know about my law license.

    Well, we'll see. I opted for the criminal law specialty, mostly since I've spent most of my career there and am intellectually curious about it.

    As to steerage vs. upper deck, I don't know...seems to me we are all in the same boat!
     
  12. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    Nosborne:
    I have a background in law enforcement and my area of interest is criminal law and human rights. Principally, I am concerned about the rights of the victim to legal protection.

    I looked for a degree that may be useful in the area and came up empty. I selected the UK degree because of a heavy focus on human rights in English Legal System and Criminal Law subjects.

    I would expect that your course will heavily reflect the ECHR content. The particular thing that I liked about doing the subjects with a UK uni is that historical basis of some of the subjects reflects first principles and you can understand the direction of the law. The books that I have on Constitutional law covers different type of constitutions and you tend to gain a broader view than a study of a single constitution. The subjects also include the new developments in the law brought on by the post war development in Europe/world and the European Union.

    I have had to become familar with some aspects of the Civil system of law which has enhanced my understanding of the criminal law process elsewhere.

    I would be interested to hear what you think of the course when you are along the way.

    regards
    Ebbwvale
     

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