Overheard Conversation about a DL Doctorate (UofP)

I overheard a conversation between two folks with accredited MSW's about another guy who was working on a doctorate from the University of Phoenix. The two MSW's were laughing and called the guy "Phd.com" and then mused about whether since the person could not get a sheep skin he could simply print his degree off the internet when he was done. They joked that maybe there was an icon you could use to print your PhD.

They did not seem to understand distance learning and just made the assumption that anyone who could would go to a purely residential program. I also sensed they were a little jealous of the guy.

North

 

In one of my all-time favorite movies, Miracle on 34th Street (the orginal one with Maureen O'Hara and Natalie Wood), R.H. Macy fires the phony psychologist with this statement:

"Where did you get your diploma--a correspondence school? You're fired!"

Alas, many decades later, much of the general population remains ignorant of the advances in distance learning. I suppose that it is up to us "DL evangelists" to do a better job of spreading the word.

Tony Piña
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

This is interesting as my wife, who works at a private four year LA college, overheard something similar. Curiously it was also a person with a Master's degree making fun of a Nova doctoral learner complaining that they were getting a "high school" PhD and making fun of the distance nature of it.

I chock this up to a combination of ignorance and envy. People will think and say what they want and as long as it is rooted in ignorance, there is really little hope of short term change. I am confidence that a decade from now it will be different and two decades from now it will be more different. Time takes care of these things.

One of my most telling and enlightening aspects of my doctoral program was the research I did on dissertations from traditional brick and mortar universities while I was at the beginning stage of my own dissertation.

There was some absolute rubbish out there. Some qualitative works as short as 40 pages. Many examples that if they had Walden, Nova, or Capella on the front page would have been used as examples of why distance based schools produce substandard doctoral graduates. However, that these had University of Washington, Columbia, University of New Mexico, Penn State on them, assumptions of higher quality are made.

As I say, time will take care of much of this.

 

One active poster here, who tries to be knowledgeable about distance learning, referred to Union Institute and University's Ph.D. as a "Mickey Mouse" doctorate (trying to put down Levicoff).

This kind of thing happens all the time, and says much more about the person making the statement than it does of the quality of the school in question.

 

Rich,

I must say that your sig line looks really good. I look forward to the day when I can do the same. Again, thanks for the inspiration.

Roscoe

P.S. My apologies for the off-topic remark. Couldn't help it.

 

Rich, have you completed your Union program? How is that coming?

 

Couldn't be me, I would never cross Levicoff. I am not that hungry for punishment.

Not into verbal flagelation.

 

PhinisheD!!!

 

I think that there are many things that will effect how people see and value distance education. I would argue that DL degrees have far more credibility today than they did even 5 years ago. I think this can be seen by how many brick and mortar institutions offer DL courses and degrees along side their other degrees. In most cases, when the degree is awarded there is no distinction on the degree or the transcripts that it was awarded by distance. The market place and the needs of a individual professions may have the greatest impact.

Two professions (that I am personally aware of) are already utilizing distance degrees in substantial ways, from traditional universities and colleges, to increase the number of qualified professionals in the field. The first is pharmacy. A number of traditional schools around the country are now offering Pharm.D. degrees as a way of attracting people back to school and enhancing practitioner credentials.

In my own profession, rehabilitation counseling, distance degrees are offered in abundnace and accepted with equal credibility both by employers and certification boards. 17 universites now offer full masters degrees either entirely on-line, or through other distance mechanisms, and a substantially larger number offer several courses on-line or by distance education. This is in response to a federal madate that all rehabilitation counselors working in state agencies (that are federally funded) must be qualified at the masters degree level. There are 90 schools that offer these degrees, they typically graduate 900-1000 graduates per year. The problem is that there were more than 4000 people needing to get qualified, the private sector is recruiting the qualified people away from the state, and about 30% of the entire profession will retire in the next 5 years. The response was that universities, the federal government and state agency employers got together and developed programs. Early research is showing that these graduates are performing at the same level as other graduates and that people with the masters degree are performing at higher levels than people without. This means than distance education is working.

The point to all of this is that 10 years ago DL was not accepted in the profession. However, the early credibilty establsihed by some of the non-traditional programs such as Walden, Nova, Fielding and Union was used as an argument to attempt to build these programs at tradtional schools. Some of the traditonal programs even brought in consultants from these schools to help them develop their efforts. 10 years later DL programs are turning out an addtional 500 graduates a year. Now some of these same programs are developing doctorates because there is a shortage of professors. The marketplace and need will drive DL. Its time has come.

 

When people ask me about my studies, I'll mention the school (S. Africa) and for some reason, I'll quickly add that it's fully accredited and recognized by the U.S. Dept. of Ed. or GAAP.

Does any other DLers respond this way?

I can never just mention the school and leave it at that. Feel a compulsion to explain DL and accreditation and then justify my reasons for studying at a foreign school.

Roscoe

 

---------------------------------------------------

I see from your signature line that you have earned your Ph.D.
Congratulations!

 

After giving a deposition a couple weeks ago the attorneys and I engaged in an interesting discussion regarding distance learning. I shared the reality that the first class of Internet trained attorneys -- Concord School of Law -- had taken the bar examination in CA. This information was not received well, in fact both attorneys laughed, vigorously I might add. At this point, one of the attorneys brought up U of P (which BTW has a location near the Nashville airport, for obvious reasons) and stated that he thought U of P was awarding degrees for very little actual work. I advised that I know a friend who is completing her MSN at this same U of P location and she describes the program as extremely challenging. The person I am referring to is a very bright hard-working student. Interesting though both attorneys agreed -- and seemed sincere that a non-science doctorate degree could be earned via DL. Both spoke of the research and reading involved and seemed to believe that this could be done independently.

 

Thanks. I'd asked a few days ago in another thread how your doctorate is going. Still at ACCS? Howzitgoin'?

 

People who lump estabished and accredited institutions such as Union and U of Phoenix demonstrate their own ignorance and lack of experience with the concept of distance learning. Research done since the 1970s has supported the fact that those involved in accredited "non-traditional" have been able to meet their educational and career goals satisfactorily. Research done since the 1930s has demonstrated that there is really no significant difference in student achievement between those receiving "traditional" classroom/lecture based instruction and those receiving "mediated" instruction (print correspondence, audio, videotape, satellite, live videoconference, computer mediated or web-based).

According to Bears' Guide, well over 250 accredited institutions of higher learning, including such "diploma mills" as Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, Columbia, Indiana-Bloomington, Penn State, Tulane and U. of Virginia offer entire degree programs via distance learning. So much for "high school Ph.D.s"

Tony Piña
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

Unfortunately, incorrect perceptions and opinions do not often die easily--even when facts are readily available.

This situation reminds me of the large number of people who think that an Ed.D. is, somehow, a lesser degree than a Ph.D., even though every study that has compared the two (and I have nearly all of them) has demonstrated that there is basically no real difference between them.

Oh well...all we educators can do is attempt to educate.

Tony

 

The only major difference I've noticed between the Ph.D. in Education and the Ed.D. is the more practical approach some Ed.D. programs take to the doctoral dissertation. But that doesn't mean the work is any less scholarly, significant, or original.

I'm not even sure how many even make THAT distinction, because I've seen many Ed.D. programs that are identical to Ph.D. programs.

As for the utility of the degee, I haven't heard of a situation where a doctorate is required and the Ed.D. is not acceptable.

In my book, they're comparable. Now don't get me started on first professional doctorates....

 

I do get strange looks when I mention that my masters degree will be from Golden Gate University in San Francisco. I live in NJ and work in NYC. Never mind that GGU is a B&M institution in the heart of San Fran's financial district.

It could be that no one has really heard of GGU here in the NY metro area. Just as I'm certain that someone from the west coast has never heard of Hofstra University, CW Post or Baruch College.

Yes, I do find myself defending the program by mentioning accreditation and how the DL thing works. I also find myself emphasizing the amount of work I actually do.

We shall overcome someday.....

 

Rich Douglas: "In my book, they're comparable. Now don't get me started on first professional doctorates.... "



Cehi: Dr. Douglas (or would you prefer we call you Rich as usual), I am sure you know that most of us here including myself, appreciate your logical comments. I can only hope that you would never deny us the opportunity to continue to be enlightened by your abundant knowledge on approcahes to pursuing non-traditional higher education. As foreing student, I got my B,M,D degrees from Texas (Longhorn Forever) without understanding the full concept of accreditation excpet ABET. Boy, I am glad I went to Texas. You and a host of others on this forum has enlightened a lot of us. So, pleaseeee continue to delight us with your knowledge. Thank you.

 

Sounds like you are sensitive to protecting the academic, research and distinguished nature conferred upon those with a Ph.D. For what its worth (from someone who hasn't even finished their BS) I agree with you. However, I do think there is a market for professional education beyond a masters degree, don't you? Columbia has a PD (professional degree) that accepts only those that have completed a masters degree. Its basically like getting extra graduate course work that has about the same duration of a masters degree. So while I wouldn't confer upon these people the same level of honor deserved by those with a Ph.D., I do think the degree is worthwhile.

--
JoAnn Peeler

 

What I do, rather than saying the school is accredited, is say that it's a large public university in Western Australia named after the first woman to serve in Australia's parliament. What I would do in your shoes is rather than saying that UNISA is accredited, say that it's Nelson Mandela's or Desmond Tutu's alma mater. I've found that when I volunteer specific data on a program's credibility to people who aren't in a position to interpret that data ("Cal State Dominguez Hills is regionally accredited" to someone who doesn't much know or care about accreditation, for example), it looks like I'm being a little combative and feel a need to prove the school's credibility--but if I say something interesting about the school that also has the side effect of vouching for its credibility (e.g. locally I might say "Cal State Dominguez Hills is where JSU president James Lyons transferred" or "That's that school where they held the cheerleading finals in Bring It On"), then I've pretty much scratched out any reasonable question marks.


Cheers,