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  1. #1
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    Post Time bombs, exploded or still ticking

    When I mentioned that I have a one-month window of opportunity to view the 8 million resumes on Monster.com, Bill Hurd asked, Will we see some stats [in this forum or ??] on your review of the resumes? I think that will be an eye-opener.

    It has been quite amazing. The first public airing of the findings is scheduled to be on Good Morning America (ABC) next Thursday. I hope to have confirmation and exact time in a couple of days. If all goes well, they hope to make it a regular series of 'visits' to people in important and/or sensitive positions, who have fake degrees.

    Dan Snelson added that 8 million resumes and one month is less than 186 resumes per minute...you can work 24-7 for the WHOLE month, right?

    Happily, Monster has a really good and fast search engine, so all I have to do is type in "Earlscroft University" or "University of San Moritz" and there they all are, in terrifying profusion.
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning,
    Degree Mills: the billion-dollar industry that has sold more than a million fake diplomas, How to Repair Food, 30+ more.
    www.johnbear.info

  2. #2
    Bill Huffman is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by John Bear:
    It has been quite amazing. The first public airing of the findings is scheduled to be on Good Morning America (ABC) next Thursday. I hope to have confirmation and exact time in a couple of days. If all goes well, they hope to make it a regular series of 'visits' to people in important and/or sensitive positions, who have fake degrees.
    This is very exciting news. I will have to tape it so please let us know.

    I believe the most common time bomb uncovered at my company is false claims to graduating from real schools. It's too bad there's no way to know overall how common this type of time bomb is.

  3. #3
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    Bill Huffman wrote, in part, I believe the most common time bomb uncovered at my company is false claims to graduating from real schools. It's too bad there's no way to know overall how common this type of time bomb is.

    Agreed. When the head of Columbia Pictures was caught falsely claiming a Yale degree many years ago, Yale acknowledged at the time that they knew of more than 7,000 such claims. Just one school, and just the ones they happened to know about! This practice is often supported by the diploma counterfeiting services, which supply all-too-good reproductions of diplomas of real schools.
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning,
    Degree Mills: the billion-dollar industry that has sold more than a million fake diplomas, How to Repair Food, 30+ more.
    www.johnbear.info

  4. #4
    Gerstl is offline Registered User
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    Post

    Originally posted by Bill Huffman:

    I believe the most common time bomb uncovered at my company is false claims to graduating from real schools. It's too bad there's no way to know overall how common this type of time bomb is.
    If the hiring company exercised due dilegence, they would find out before they hired the person. My wife does part time work for a company that verifies credentials for other companies during the hiring process. They contact the schools and verify each school on the resume, each previous job etc.


    -me

  5. #5
    Bill Huffman is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Gerstl:
    If the hiring company exercised due dilegence,
    My company does check. It is very possible that there are more degree mill degrees that I don't hear about. Those would hopefully be weeded out by personnel before they ever get to engineering . In engineering we hear about the bogus claims to real degrees because they don't check on that until after it is decided to extend an offer. I know some examples where the fellow might have gotten the job based on his experience except for the bogus degree claim. Then again it seems that when they lie about their degree it also seems common that they've lied about their experience as well. Of course, any lie on the application means automatic rejection.


  6. #6
    vpacheco is offline Registered User
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    "My company does check. It is very possible that there are more degree mill degrees that I don't hear about." - Bill

    Ironically, I think there is undisclosed amount of people with degrees from the mill manage to pass governmental agency personnel. I personally believe that it is very to check any person academic achievement without his/her consent. I think it is under privacy act. Beside, one hires a person usually based on who he/she knows or likes.
    I got hire and start working right away without all of the paperworks have to be done.
    I think most companies pre-assume all applicants are honest.
    "The great tragedy of Science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." Thomas Henry Huxley

  7. #7
    Chip is offline Administrator
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    Originally posted by vpacheco:
    I personally believe that it is very unethical? (Word omitted in original) to check any person academic achievement without his/her consent. I think it is under privacy act.
    Virtually every employment application I've ever seen requires an employee to sign a statement to the effect that the information provided is truthful, and most of them also include a statement authorizing the employer to verify all statements made.

    As can be seen by the rampant "resume inflation", a lot of employees lie either in their resume or on their application. If you're telling the truth, there should be no problem with an employer verifying your employment and education . If you've made statements that induced an employer to hire you, and those statements are untrue, you've basically committed fraud, so I see no "invasion of privacy" issues there.

    Beside, one hires a person usually based on who he/she knows or likes. I got hire and start working right away without all of the paperworks have to be done.

    And this certainly happens. But from the employer's perspective, it is not wise at all. There are all sorts of risks and liabilities that one takes when one hires someone without a background and/or credentials check. Some employers have suffered huge judgements after a bad hire went crazy and hurt or killed someone, and the employer didn't bother to check criminal record or other history .

    I think most companies pre-assume all applicants are honest.

    Certainly not any that I've worked/consulted for. That's not to say that the assume their employees are crooks, either... but most employers I'm familiar with don't simply take everything at face value. It's extremely unwise in this climate.

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  9. #8
    vpacheco is offline Registered User
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    Wow, I can't believe you would argue all of my opinions. Of course, they are all argueable just like almost everything I can think of.
    1-You assumed a word "unethical." I meant to use a word "hard."
    2-I don't know how one can check my academic record without my consent similar with medical history record. Privacy Act that prevents discrimination. Of course one can check criminal history and other records. I agree with you.

    3-For example, we can pre-assume that anyone that shops at a supermarket is not a shoplifter. Would you agree? Although, I am aware that there are shoplifter. The reason I like to comment because I don't have anything better to do at this time. :-)

    Victor
    "The great tragedy of Science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." Thomas Henry Huxley

  10. #9
    Alex is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by vpacheco:

    2-I don't know how one can check my academic record without my consent similar with medical history record. Privacy Act that prevents discrimination. Of course one can check criminal history and other records. I agree with you.

    Victor
    The grades themselves might be considered private, to be released only upon consent of the student). I believe that once a degree is awarded it is considered public information (or directory information), so whether or not a person has received a degree may be released freely. Universities routinely publish lists of their graduates in graduation programs and newspapers, for instance.

    Note that many employment applications have a statement that you must sign in order to be considered for a position. The statement gives permission for the potential employer to contact previous employers and schools.

  11. #10
    Bill Huffman is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by vpacheco:

    2-I don't know how one can check my academic record without my consent similar with medical history record. Privacy Act that prevents discrimination. Of course one can check criminal history and other records. I agree with you.
    When you graduate one of the papers that is shoved under your nose and you probably signed was giving permission to the school to release information as to when and in what you graduated. I assume that most verification of graduation is done over the phone with no exchange of any written requests.

  12. #11
    John Bear is offline Senior Member
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    The main page-one story in today (Sunday's) San Francisco Chronicle is about a man who has been working as an orthopedia surgeon for twenty years. No medical school, no degree. Performened employment exams on FBI agents.

    But the really scary part is that the article also referred to New York State discovering 580 imposters (and vastly more posing as nurses, pharmacists, and dentists).Florida has a new task force to 'root out phony doctors and dentists' and has made 69 arrests in 2 years, with 200 cases in progress.

    And what is going on in the other 47 states? We need an emoticon with teardrops.

    The full article is at:
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...8/MN132076.DTL
    Author/co-author:15 editions of Bears Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning,
    Degree Mills: the billion-dollar industry that has sold more than a million fake diplomas, How to Repair Food, 30+ more.
    www.johnbear.info

  13. #12
    Gerstl is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Chip:
    Virtually every employment application I've ever seen requires an employee to sign a statement to the effect that the information provided is truthful, and most of them also include a statement authorizing the employer to verify all statements made.

    Yep, and this is given to the company that checks the references, and faxed to all the schools when they check on the reference/degree.


  14. #13
    Professor Ragoo is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Bill Huffman:
    When you graduate one of the papers that is shoved under your nose and you probably signed was giving permission to the school to release information as to when and in what you graduated. I assume that most verification of graduation is done over the phone with no exchange of any written requests.

    For two years, I checked education claims on resumes and application forms. The schools would not release personally identifiable information (DOB, SSN, etc.) but would VERIFY either degree awarded OR attendance. The key word is VERIFY. A specific year (or a narrow range) helps to focus on the particular individual under review.


  15. #14
    Bill Hurd is offline Registered User
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    Prof Ragoo wrote: ...but would VERIFY either degree awarded OR attendance. The key word is VERIFY.

    For several years, it has been a common practice for our HR department to simply verify employment. We may verify dates of employment - but that is it.
    Adjunct professor Business

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  17. #15
    vpacheco is offline Registered User
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    "The main page-one story in today (Sunday's) San Francisco Chronicle is about a man who has been working as an orthopedia surgeon for twenty years. No medical school, no degree. Performened employment exams on FBI agents.

    But the really scary part is that the article also referred to New York State discovering 580 imposters (and vastly more posing as nurses, pharmacists, and dentists).Florida has a new task force to 'root out phony doctors and dentists' and has made 69 arrests in 2 years, with 200 cases in progress." - Dr. John Bear

    Thank you Dr. John Bear for your comment. Obviously, many companies don't check or don't do a good job in checking their employees.

    "When you graduate one of the papers that is shoved under your nose and you probably signed was giving permission to the school to release information as to when and in what you graduated. I assume that most verification of graduation is done over the phone with no exchange of any written requests." - Bill Huffman

    What are talking about paper "shoved under my nose." Why don't you at least use some common courtesy? You said "verification" as well as Professor Ragoo. It's just what stated previously that it is "hard to check," and that is why there fraudulent and degree mill exists. Obviously, verification alone will not always work because something manages to seepage through a crack.

    The question I have is: Are we trying to prevent or at least minimize the use of degree mill or just talk about it?

    Victor
    "Think before talk" - Unknown Sources
    "The great tragedy of Science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." Thomas Henry Huxley

  18. #16
    Chip is offline Administrator
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    Originally posted by vpacheco:


    "When you graduate one of the papers that is shoved under your nose and you probably signed ...(snip)

    What are talking about paper "shoved under my nose." Why don't you at least use some common courtesy?


    I think we've got a language issue here. The phrase isn't intended to be offensive, it's a common English idiom. It loosely means "handed to you to sign without looking at it closely".

    You said "verification" as well as Professor Ragoo. It's just what stated previously that it is "hard to check," and that is why there fraudulent and degree mill exists.

    It is not at all hard to check. To determine whether the candidate holds the degree claimed, all one has to do is check with the school.

    To determine whether the school is a "less-than-wonderful" program, such as one of the many awful schools in Wyoming, Hawaii, Louisiana, South Dakota, or Iowa, one need only refer to Bears' Guide or to George Brown's website.


    Obviously, verification alone will not always work because something manages to seepage through a crack.


    Ah! But verification is becoming much more common, and credential-checking services are springing up everywhere. Even in the Far East and other foreign countries, employers are becoming more aware, and as better resources become available, the long-running scam schools that target Far East and other foreign students will have a harder and harder time scamming people.

    The question I have is: Are we trying to prevent or at least minimize the use of degree mill or just talk about it?

    Depends on who "we" is. There are a number of regulars here that have worked diligently to expose and close down diploma mills. There are several of us that have had a direct effect on the closing of various scam programs, and there are quite a few schools that are currently "on the radar".

    And simply by describing the "less-than-wonderful" programs, we can help people to avoid being taken in by them.

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