The outing of UoP

I thought I would put some of my thoughts and experiences into an “official” post seeing how UoP seems to be an object of ridicule and dislike by many members of this board.

First, the pretense that UoP is gouging or charging an exorbitant rate is simply not true. First, price gouging is defined as “pricing above the market when no alternative retailer is available” (define.ansme.com). Obviously, it would be difficult to claim that UoP’s customers have no alternatives. Secondly, although their may be better more cost effective programs the cost of approximately $10,000 per year (30 credit hours) is no where near unheard of. UNC Greensboro out of state tuition cost $13.4k per year, Kansas State $11k, University of Kansas $10.6, MIT $28k, and Harvard a mere $26k.

Another complaint often heard about UoP is the lack of full time professors. This “can” be both a positive and a negative. The professors, or facilitators, are required to be working and have obtained their degree at least three years before they begin to teach. Being taught by someone who is putting into practice what he or she is teaching is a MAJOR positive. The negative is that the individual has less time to prepare for the class and since teaching is not their primary source of income, their “care level” may be less. One realization should be made when using this as a determinant for rating UoP. That is full time professors at major research universities often focus a large percentage of their time focusing on research issues. For this comparison one must ask themselves is the value of being taught by a preeminent researcher in a 100-200 person class with labs being lead by graduate students more or less than being taught by a part time professor at UoP? I would argue that the answer is unique to each situation.

In regards to individuals having bad experiences in learning teams and lacking the understanding of why UoP does utilizes them I think you are missing two important facts. The first is UoP counts the hours an individual spends in a learning team towards class room hours allowing them to reduce the required class room hours in half. This in effect doubles their classroom utilization AND makes it easier to reduce pay for their professors. Secondly, the ability to work in a group is highly prized by businesses. Regardless of how the work gets accomplished, each student is able to point to their “team work” after they accomplish their degree. As much as Professor Kennedy frowns upon learning teams and group work realize that he readily admits that this is a common practice in MBA programs. It’s utility to enhance learning “may” be secondary to it’s ability to lend the perception of enhancing the learning practice.

The final issue I will address is the issue of reputation and the business model of UoP. Without a doubt, UoP is the largest advertiser in the college/university arena. This “may” cause a negative affect on it’s reputation, but once again the realization must be made that those reading this board take much more notice of these offenses then the general public or hiring authority.

In short, UoP, when judged on strengths and not weaknesses, is a solid program. Most traditional colleges are designed to allow their students to being a career in a new career field with a new company. UoP is better situated for the individual wishing to improve their lot within their current company or at least within their current career field. Are their more cost-effective programs? Yes! But with tuition assistance many receive this may not be the case when time requirements are taken into account.

Honestly, I would probably choose to receive my bachelor degree from a different college if I had to do it over again. UoP was the right choice for my goals at that time, but “could” be a detriment in applying to receive a PhD from a full time brick and mortar university.

 

I attend UOP right now and I happen to be very happy with it. However the LT situations are a very real problem and when only one person is doing the work it is NOT a team effort. This is my only complaint with UOP. I don't buy into the whiny complaints about it taking all our money because, as you said, plenty of regular colleges have hefty price tags. Nothing new there. If a person can find a cheaper school then they should but that totally depends on your field of choice. In the field I am in the choices are few and far between. UOP meets a need and I'm grateful for it. As far as their advertising..who cares? They have a product. They are allowed to market it. This is America.

As far as the other issues go....UOP could stand to improve. Most of my teachers are a joke, like it or not. They don't teach, they aren't even present most of the time. I am almost done with my masters degree program and in my personal experience that is just the bottom line. I'm not bashing UOP because I am one of the people who loves what it's done for me....but I'm also honest. I think UOP is great because it provides a service but the people who are teaching there are making easy money (at least the people in MY program)

I still love UOP and highly recommend it to anyone who asks. But I don't sugarcoat the facts. They are what they are.

 

I would never recommend UoP to anyone I like, even not to ones I don't like. I don't think I would want to subject anyone through the stress and frustration I've been through with them.

I do not complain about the price tag. I complain about the lack of teaching and those damn LTs. They get in the way of learning. Going to class, have no one teaching and claiming some degree at the end is an issue. That's what the accreditors need to look at and it's very prevalent in UoP. You and I - we are not the only ones who are complaining about the same issues. I've heard the same issues being problems for people. There's enough complains to warrant a looking into as to what is truly going on. It's not just some freaky student complaining about having to work hard.

 

In the end I can't disagree with anyone's perception and experiences. Everyone's experiences are different.

When I was attending UoP full time I had some great experiences in learning teams (LTs) when going to class on campus, but found it much more challenging online. I think the online aspect of LTs provide a greater opportunity for individuals in a group to shirk their responsibilities. If you are attending full time on campus you see the individuals in your group each and every class and you tend to work out disagreements or tell the member they aren't welcome back the next class. I happily admit that to ensure my 'A' I did put together the final draft of almost every paper I did at UoP. To be honest, I do agree with the opinions of the masses that it would be better if LTs did not exist. However, the reason for them are it cuts the required class room hours in half AND businesses like it when they have some proof that individuals can manage to work in a team. When reading that last statement try to ignore the validity of it and just ask yourself if the point of view exist from the business’s perspective. If the answer is yes, you see two BIG reasons for the LTs.

Regarding the quality of professors I would expect that their quality is below the average in the U.S., but remember this is a judgement based upon ALL colleges not the ones that we cherry pick (translation: there are plenty of better colleges out their for the price and quality). However, I would argue that they are probably above average when compared to professors at traditional adult colleges/universities. I have heard wonderful things about the Big 2 (the Big 3 minus Excelsior since they do not have any professors themselves), but the average adult learning school is a local operation with just few classes online. Hawaii Pacific University, Wayland Baptist, etc… is more the typical adult college/university.

From the experiences of my wife and friends at these Universities, I believe UoP's courses are superior. Part of it has to do with the Professors having experience in the field they teach and part of it with the requirements the school places on what is to be covered and what is expected from the participants. I believe these rules and regulations remove the possibility of a professor being brilliant and inspiring, but ensures a level of participation and quality that is not present at small colleges that hire anyone who received a master degree and give them no guidance on how to teach/guide/facilitate their class.

Summary: I do not believe that UoP is a "bad" college and my largest concern is that how UoP is perceived may cloud the judgement of hiring officials. I do not believe however that their reputation is nearly as bad as the addicts on this board (myself included) believe it is. I also do not feel that the quality of education is as bad as many think it is. Is their better, cheaper, and even quicker schools? Yes! Are their worse, more expensive, and slower schools? Absolutely! and plenty of them.

 

I admit that I don't follow all of the UoP threads but the only common con I see voiced about UoP on this board is that lower cost programs are available elsewhere.

 

I "admit' nothing!

Jallen 2

You write "As much as Professor Kennedy frowns upon learning teams and group work realize that he readily admits that this is a common practice in MBA programs."

Please, do not imply my report that many MBA courses use group projects, or 'Learning Teams' as a "ready admission". It was a complaint!

The basis being that when universities in the UK in the late 1970s and 1980s were starting their MBAs, they copied what the others were doing - the originals had group projects, so they had group projects; they had a dissertation, so they had one. It had no researched rationale at all, its benefits were assumed not established by evidence of the benefits to the students.

I have listened to tirades from faculty at Business Schools, but not a scintilla of evidence. When asked for evidence, I get sneers of the 'everybody knows' kind.

"It’s utility to enhance learning “may” be secondary to it’s ability to lend the perception of enhancing the learning practice."

That says it all, doesn't it? Learning Teams and Group Projects have little, if any, pedagogical value but because "accreditors" and "bosses" at work preceive them to be appropriate then we had better put them in! Sounds off stage of collapse of standards, surrender of academic integrity and cynics swooning with multiple orgasms in the brain cells.

I have not enough knowledge of UoP and prefer to wait until I have found out more. My comments above are directed at all institutions that use group projects and learning teams.

I am not influenced in my judgement of the pedagogic worth by the contributions from a few UoP students (I held my views long before I heard of UoP).

All people learn by different mixes of inputs; some find LTs tolerable, others don't. If they are really a waste of time, this would show in the attrition rate (data anybody?); if the toleration for them is sufficient (for whatever individual or personal reasons, e.g., Army Wife balanced and plausible contributions) the attrition rate will be stable and low.

These are empirical questions, easily mixed with opinions not subject to testing.

 

I respectfully disagree with you that UoP courses are superior. They are in my opinion anything but superior.

As for learning teams (LT), it's all something that sounds good in theory. The pressures and expectations of a real life business team in a professional environment are not anything like UoP. If you did what many of these students on teams at UoP did at work, you'd be fired, no doubt. So to say that it simulates a real life environment and all that jazz is BS. I don't know about you but most of the classmates/teammates I've had are folks who do not really care about the assignment or doing well. They merely care to just get it done even if it were done at a D level. Given that the "facilitators" at UoP don't really care to teach, a D grade paper elsewhere is an A grade one at UoP. I think that's OK if the school continues to play that tune - that it's an easy place to get a degree but instead it chooses to play the high road and wants to be looked at as a "quality" school when it isn't.

UoP has very bad reputation amongst those in academia. I've met many professors from other schools who are very open to the idea of DL but frown at UoP for its poor overall quality. While there are some who frown at DL period, the general feeling is people frown on UoP's quality. I am glad that there are many, many more DL opportunities now and this shifts students away from UoP.

I went to UoP for I thought they really meant what they said - that they provided a decent education and had standards that they cared to maintain. I quickly learned that it was not true at all. As I'd mentioned many, many times, the DLs are an idealistic brainwave to fill in the hours so that they can get accreditation. Their marketing spin on that is that it simulates a real life working environment and "your employer will love you for knowing how to work in a team."

I've come to conclude that if you walked into UoP and didn't care at all about standards, are someone who does average to below standard work, don't care if your instructors teach or not, in fact it's better that they don't, don't really care if you dump on others, then your UoP experience would be an amazing one and they'd probably recruit you to be one of their spokesperson. But if you walk in and expect a teacher to teach and expect others in your class to be serious about learning and do quality work, then you'd end up in sheer frustration. But no matter what and who you are, it still doesn't erase the fact that UoP has a very bad reputation. That, it did to itself. It has ample opportunity to better itself, hire better people and understand that you can still be a for-profit organization and make tons of $$$ without sacrificing your reputation and quality. What people fail to realize is, $$$, reputation and quality can go together. There is nothing wrong with being a for-profit institution.

 

Professor Kennedy, I can see how what I wrote and how I wrote it could lead people to believe I was claiming you supported the idea. Instead, I was trying to point out that most MBA programs use learning team methods. Therefore, if an individual choose to attack UoP for the use of learning teams they must realize they are attacking the methodology used by most MBA programs. This does not mean it is not a legitimate argument just that the scope and acceptance is more than UoP.

Matt, you seem to think I said that learning teams improve the education process at UoP. Please read the following quote of my previous quote carefully: "businesses like it when they have some proof that individuals can manage to work in a team. When reading that last statement try to ignore the validity of it and just ask yourself if the point of view exist from the business’s perspective". That is a justification of the process and an argument for it possibly increasing the value of the degree due to the belief of the hiring manager of the graduate being able to work in a team. This deals only with the perception and not what takes place in the education process.

Additionally, when I claimed that UoP classes were superior I was comparing them to colleges and universities that focus on the adult learner. Ignoring the Big 2 (the Big 3 minus Excelsior) their are not many nationally known schools that are oriented to the adult learner. DeVry is one of the few. Others are local colleges who hiring standards are less then UoP and whose pay is comparable. I have no idea if you have any experiences with these colleges and universities, but being in a military environment, I have plenty of acquaintances that do. Their can be an argument saying their reputation is better, because they are less known. The quality of education most of those colleges is LESS then UoP, but I will grant you their cost is significantly less.

In short their are better and cheaper choices the UoP, but UoP is better then many (especially if your employer pays for all or some of it). UoP's reputation is not great and never will be. I do believe that having a degree from any RA school will help in the hiring process. I also have a feeling having a degree from Capella, Touro, or Excelsior will not benefit the individual more on an interview then having a degree from UoP. Hell, I think that 40+% of the time having a degree from a diploma mill with an official sounding name will benefit the individual more then having a degree from any of the a

In the end it is all opinion so it's difficult to say one is wrong or right. I do know that their is a lot of horrid expensive accredited education available in the United States. I suppose that means reputation is the biggest question. The answer will not be found by asking academics, but the hundreds of thousands of hiring managers. If anyone feels bored and wants to do some statistical analysis on the issue I'd love to hear the results.

 

I've been to several different schools, ground and online. Academic teams and professional teams seem to be worlds apart, even if in theory they seem the same concept. I've met colleagues who are bad at responding in a team situation but it never lasts long for the consequences are dire. I've had academic teammates who are plain bad and never care to improve and the academic environment doesn't "out" them. In fact, I've had MUCH LESS frustration working in professional teams (where people are several time zones away) than academic teams like those lousy learning teams from UoP. I think if you had a chance to choose your teammates, then an academic team might work because you are then working with people who you are compatible with and have the same goals. But the format in which UoP operates is far from that. You're dumped randomly into a team and asked to operate with people who do not have the same professional background or knowledge as you nor even the same goals or academic level as you are at. It's a recipe for disaster. And the person who is strong in that "team" is always the one to pay for the weakness of those on that team. They end up having to do all the work and the weak ones get the good grade for it. The weak ones never learn why they are weak and the strong ones get dumped on by the weak ones. A lose-lose situation all around. You will never really find such a situation in a professional environment because people are compensated monetarily and their livelihood is on the line. They would walk right into their manager's office and "out" the ones who pull them down. It's a dog eat dog world out there.

Hiring managers who are experienced do not hire you because you claim you've been on some UoP learning team for the duration of your degree program. In a depressed economic environment like what we've been under, hiring managers want to hire candidates who can create impact, make a difference and bring value to the company.

While UoP may be "better" than some other small college's quality of education, fact is, UoP has a bad reputation and hence if you said you're from a small "Whatever University", no one raises an eyebrow whereas they will when you say "Univ of Phoenix".

 

I love this post.

A seven hundred word defence of a school that concludes with: "Honestly, I would probably choose to recieve my bacheolor degree from a different college if I had to do it over again."

 

The most succinctly written reason, I have seen, for UoP teams.

I have read no evidence leading to the conclusion that learning teams, in a distance based model, offers any higher success rate in reaching learning objectives. I have seen practical application of distance based learning teams that resulted in, quite simply, a mess.

 

Re: Re: The outing of UoP

Paul - Another reason for the learning team approach may be found in UoP's fight with regulators over the number of hours of instruction they were requiring for thier classes. As I recall UoP paid significant fines to the DOE some time ago and installed the learning team system as a response to regulatory pressures.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: Re: The outing of UoP

Andy,

That's correct - the team counts as "contact hours"

Dave A

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The outing of UoP

And they put on a nice spin and say, "your employers will love you because you know how to work in a team".

UofP learning teams are a sham. The "contact hours" are stress and frustration hours for those who do care to do their work and it also spells out as "dump hours" for those who don't care to do their work and screw their teammates over.

All in all, it's A VERY BAD CONCEPT.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The outing of UoP

Matt,

It does something very important - it reduces the hourly cost of part-time instructors.

Dave A

 

On UOP and Teams

I used to teach for UOP... and based on my evaluations, I guess I was one of the good guys...

A few observations:

1. Unless I had company sponsorship, I would not attend myself.

2. There is TREMENDOUS pressure to inflate grades. Many students think it is the Wal-Mart of education; the money was paid, so where is my A?

3. I object to the way UOP is marketed... it is strong-arm.

4. Recruiters are called "counselors" and are NOT. The often gave bad advice and allowed students to enroll in a class of mine at the last minute, telling them "the instructor will not care if you did not complete the first weeks' assignment." That was a constant battle for me.

5. Learning teams are actually a good idea. In my three-plus years of teaching, I think I had trouble with three teams.... now, I made over $20k a year with them as a parttime instructor and taught many many classes. If a group came in the class and had worked together, I would let them stay in their work group. Often, they might acquire a new member. And I would have them reflect on their group work at the end and grade a non-performing student down. I told them going in I would do it and then carried through. I instructed LT students that they had a right to fire a member with cause. I did happen a few times... then that person had to beg to get in another group.

 

QUOTE
[And they put on a nice spin and say, "your employers will love you because you know how to work in a team".

UofP learning teams are a sham. The "contact hours" are stress and frustration hours for those who do care to do their work and it also spells out as "dump hours" for those who don't care to do their work and screw their teammates over.

All in all, it's A VERY BAD CONCEPT.]

Matt,

Interesting response. I am certain that you never have problems working in teams. Based on your response, it is clear that any problem you might have encountered was clearly the result of the "other" person.

I suspect that if you research the topic of emotional intelligence, you might take a different point of view on a few of your points?

As for the instruction at UOP. . .I attended classes in St. Louis and I must say, the level of instruction was fantastic.

1st, the instructors that are being bashed generally graduated from other traditional universities. So, it's not like one can claim the UOP instructors are not qualified?

2nd, the instructors have "real world" experience. It was refreshing to ask questions and get responses from people who really know the industry they are teaching. For what it's worth, I attended classes at St. Louis University, University of Kansas and Southern Illinois University and the instructors at UOP easily matched instructors at any of these traditional universities.

3rd, I respectfully disagree with anyone who suggests the "learning team" concept is not legitimate. Keep in mind, Washinton University deploys a similar concept in their MBA program (ranked in the top 15 by US News and World Report). By the way, since all UOP students have to be employed full-time, it adds even more credibility to the learning team concept (especially in a graduate program). Why? Because in many instances, classmates may also have expertise in areas which are being discussed.

Believe me, I understand why some people get upset with UOP. Quite simply, they are destroying the competition. Every one of their programs is growing. The largest US companies support and encourage UOP classes. If I were a competitor, I might be complaining also.

 

But are these distance learning courses or residence courses? I have found that in most cases DL is more affordable then resdential programs.

 

I taught for UoP Online for about 3 years and decided to end my relationship with UoP based on a level of frustration and some academic differences. For the most part I think UoP delivers a good education product but in many aspects there could be improvement.

My experience was primarily in the masters CIS program where I was doing the final capstone project. This was an individual final project that had to be completed from concept to finish in 6 weeks. My opinion that this is too short of a time frame. This is compunded by the fact that I would have about 10 students at a time to guide through the project in 6 weeks. LTs were also part of the course and although the work was to get students to do research that they could use for their project the utilization of LTs in this capacity was diminished because of the wide scope of projects. Most students saw this as an extra burden of time while they were trying to research and write their individual project. Then, after the 6 weeks I would get slammed with 300 - 500 pages of student projects to read and grade and have returned within a week.

Academically I did not like the 6 week approach and suggested that the course be broken up into two courses. The first 6 weeks devoted to research and proposal. The 2nd part would then focus on additional research and writing to provide a final project which in my opinion would improve the academic quality of the final project. Because of the fast paced 6 weeks coupled with required LT activity many of the final projects were hurried and as a result I think the students suffered because this would of course affect their grade.

I did have some excellent projects but those that did not fair too well almost always complained about the level of effort they put into it the course rather than the assessment on their final deliverable.

My last work with UoP in this regard was when I was finishing up one capstone class. I had a student from a non-English speaking country who was allowed to register and start the class a week late. He was an excellent student and had good command of the English language and worked closely with me resulting in one of the best course final projects and he completed it a week early. Overall, I was very impressed with his work! At the end of that final week the remaining projects came in, they were read, graded, and when I went to enter grades the non-English student had limited grade options. I could not enter a regular letter grade. Esentially I was allowed to enter the equivalent of a withdrawal from the course.

To this I was surprised and thought it was a system problem. Going through the various channels I finally received a response in about two weeks. The answer was that since this student had missed the first week and the computer record showed that he missed the last week (remember he finished a week early) he would not be allowed a letter grade becausae his Online presence was only 4 out of the 6 weeks. There would be no exceptions and I was advised I needed to enter one of the grades posted on the online system and could not advise the student to file an appeal.

I did advise the student of the action I needed to take and asked him to get in contact with his advisor immediately. Fortunately, the advisor advised him of the appeal and I supported the claim and he was able to get the grade he deserved.

The end result was frustration on my part due to the the corporate rigidity of the system. I advised UoP at that time that I would not be teaching any additional courses for them.

It has now been over two years later and looking at the continued posts I don't think much has changed although I hope it has.

John

 

good explanation

drwetsch,

Your comments are interesting. Earlier this year, I completed my MBA from UOP (St. Louis campus). At any rate, I know exactly what class you are speaking about and I am very familar with the attendance policy.

1. The attendance policy is so strict because of the accredidation process. All students are informed regarding the policy and they make NO exceptions. I am not certain how someone could be completing masters level program and NOT understand the attendance policy?

2. The capstone course, for the MBA program, was split into two classes. Also, working with the team on the final project was invaluable. We shared resources and tried to help each other with challenging issues. I have no doubt that a "virtual" team is more likely to have problems.

Obviously, there are issues at UOP. However, I believe the same words can be uttered for any collegiate program. I mean, are you a better instructor when you teach for other Universities? Of course not. . .you have the same knowledge, the same work experiences and the same capacity to teach. I am certain that students from UOP gained just as much insight from your instruction as students from other Universities? I am also certain that the students at UOP are thankful for your commitment to teach!