Cape Town Baptist Seminary

Greetings to all the folks on Degreeinfo.com. I have been a lurker on these discussions for some time now, and thought it was time I registered.

I have been considering several distance ed. options for further grad. and/or post-grad work for some time now. I came across Cape Town Baptist Seminary on Jason D. Baker's site http://www.gospelcom.net/bakersguide/international.php
which states that CTBS offers, "Formerly The Baptist Theological College of South Africa, Cape Town, this institution is affiliated with the Baptist Union of South Africa. They offer the opportunity to engage in non-resident, University of Pretoria validated Ph.D. programs. However, because it is a small college, opportunities for supervision are quite limited."

Does anyone here have any more knowledge and/or experience regarding CTBS?

 

Universtiy of Pretoria

Well then, does anyone have any experience with the University of Pretoria, which validates CTBS's program?

 

I have no expereince with the Univ. of Pretoria. I believe they are quite well respected.

University of Zululand (also on Bakers site) is very affordable and is (along with SATS) one of the most customer service friendly institutions that I have encountered. They have PhD's & DTh.'s through research (not coursework based).

North

 

AlnEstn,

I have no direct experience with the University of Pretoria. However, both of my current UNISA lecturers, along with almost half of UNISA's Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies, have degrees from the University of Pretoria.

 

SATS

SATS's website says this regarding accreditation:
"ACCREDITATION AND REGISTRATION

All our programmes are accredited by the Council on Higher Education (CHE), the Education and Training Quality Assurer (ETQA) of the South African Qualifications Authority (SAQA) and are registered by the Department of Education. We are also a founder member of the National Association of Distance Education Organisations in South Africa.

SAQA accreditation and Department of Education registration provide assurance that the quality of our programmes is of the highest standard. Our programmes are therefore nationally and internationally comparable and the credits earned with us are truly “portable”, i.e. they can be transferred to other accredited, registered institutions. The increasing number of international students confirms the acceptability of our programmes around the world."

Now, knowing little about the SA system, except what I have picked up on this site, how does that compare with UNISA, PRETORIA, etc.,?

Would their programs be as recognized in NA as those from SA universities?

 

Welcome to the forum!!!

COUNT SAYS:

"That makes 2, 2 Old Testament Scholars on Degreeinfo... ha ha ha!"

Chris
(MA OT TEDS 2001).

 

Some thoughts from Cory and Gert (Oxpecker?), who have a far grater insight on South African Universities than I.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5911&highlight=South+african

I love the search feature on this board.

 

SATS Accreditation

After some searching around, I see this has been discussed previously. However, the conclusion did not seem entirely unanimous.

I see also that SATS has dropped their doctoral programs.

Thanks for the help.

 

Re: SATS Accreditation

My understanding is that they had to in order to get Govt approval of their program. SATS folks are great to deal with.

North

 

CTBS is a very solid little institution. Their faculty consists of a combination of South Africans and Southern Baptist missionaries, all of whom possess outstanding academic credentials. This school's relationship with Pretoria is only a few short years old, so they only recently had their first student complete the Pretoria PhD. As I mentioned on the Baker’s Guide site, their resources are very limited, so there is a very good chance they might not be open to taking you on as a PhD student. Or perhaps they would.

My recommendation is that you seriously explore Pretoria’s distance-based PhD in Old Testament. Pretoria is an institution with a solid international reputation. The faculty historically is monolithically Dutch Reformed. However, at present, they are working hard to cultivate more of an interdenominational culture. A doctorate from this institution would serve you well. You can learn about the distance-based PhD in Old Testament at this link:
http://www.up.ac.za/academic/theology/news/phdeng.htm

You would do well to get in touch with Alexander I. Negrov, who is Academic Dean at St Petersburg Christian University in Russia and Honorary Lecturer in the Faculty of Theology at the University of Pretoria. Prior to completing his PhD at Pretoria, he completed MA’s in NT and OT at Briercrest. He would probably be able to identify well with your academic background and provide you some insight into the Pretoria program and experience. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to track down an email address for him, as the SPCU website seems to be down right now. However, the folks at the UP Old Testament department might be able to put you in touch with him. Here’s their link: http://www.up.ac.za/academic/theology/departments/oldtest.htm

By the way, I have a number of friends and colleagues who either studied, or are presently studying, at Briercrest. Blessings! Hope this info is helpful.

 

U of Pretoria

Cory,
I did my Hebrew and a few other courses with Alexander (Sasha, to us) Negrov, so I am happy to get an update about him. Hopefully I will be able to contact him, for I am sure he could help me out.

All,
It did not seem like the issue of SATS's recognition was fully decided in the other thread. Does it have legitimate SA accreditation? How would it be viewed/accepted in comparison to other SA universities?

 

My opinion is that, regardless of SATS's accreditation status, this institution will not, for several years at the very least, come to be viewed as being on par with other South African theological faculties (if ever). They are much too young; they have no track record of producing published material of distinction to the scholarly community; their faculty is not particularly noteworthy; to the best of my knowledge, they have yet to produce a graduate who has gained a professorship at another institution. I could go on. I don't doubt in the least bit that they are doing a fine job of training pastors and church leaders for ministry. However, if one is looking to earn a degree that has utility within the academic community, it will take another ten years or so before SATS even begins to distinguish itself as a viable place to do so. At present, SATS has not established itself firmly within the South African community, so its stature within the international community should be deemed even more questionable.

I certainly wish the folks at SATS much success; but I think that they need to be looked upon realistically in the present.

That's my opinion.

 

Cory's remarks are spot on, and they apply not only to SATS but also to other private higher educational institutions in South Africa. Private higher education in South Africa has a relatively short history (and not a proud one). SAQA registration is a step in the right direction, but there still is no credible program for in-depth institutional review in place.

 

A key point is that SATS and other private institutions are not viewed as "universities" at all. (And, IIRC, it would be illegal for them to call themselves universities.)

 

SATS and CTBS

Cory:
Am I safe to assume that your statements regarding SATS would apply to Cape Town Baptist Seminary as well?

Would the fact that CTBS offers its MTh and PhD in conjunction with the U of Pretoria change your assement at all?

 

Re: Welcome to the forum!!!

"That makes 2, 2 Old Testament Scholars on Degreeinfo... ha ha ha!"

Chris
(MA OT TEDS 2001). [/B][/QUOTE]

Great to "meet" you Chris.
ONLY 2 of us?

 

Re: SATS and CTBS

I would draw no parallels between the two institutions. CTBS validation by Pretoria is the normal relationship between a theological college and a university faculty within the South African system. Also, CTBS is an established and reputable institution in its own right, though it is small. Recently, one of their professors left to take up a post in theology at Southwestern Baptist Seminary in Texas.

 

In addition, as a denominational college of the Baptist Union, CTBS has the backing and endorsement of an entire denomination. SATS, on the other hand, is the project of a single church.

In summary, CTBS is very much the real deal. It remains to be seen whether SATS will rise to the level of being considered in the same light. In my opinion, for the time being, SATS should be considered as having been better off as a validated institution of UZulu than they are presently.

 

My impression is that SATS is very much legitmate and seems to have accreditation (equiv) as a private institution. I agree that there is not a large history of private colleges in South Africa, and probably to a certain extent in England, and Canada. In Canada when we thought of University we meant Provincial Universities. This is undoubtably changing. The US of course has an absolute smorgasboard of schools public & private.

I agree that they are very new. In the last couple of years they have exprienced significant growth and that is possibly due to their affordability, programs and great customer service. They are new and as someone has pointed out do not have a track record. This concern is what lead folks to choose UNIZUL degrees with SATS as the middle person.

To be honest I think in the US most people would look for the foreign credential evaluation and would not know the difference between SATS & Cape Town Baptist Seminary. Certainly, the Univerisity of Pretoria would carry more weight on a degree.

North

 

North,

Thanks for your interaction. I don't mean to imply that I question SATS's legitimacy as an institution, or the legitimacy of their accreditation. I simply mean that, whereas CTBS has already been tested and proven to be a viable contributor within the academic community (granted, up until recently, not at the postgraduate level), it remains to be seen whether SATS will do the same. Of course, there are numerous accredited theological institutions around, even here in the US, that are not viewed as being academically strong by peer institutions. Hence, these institutions, while accredited, are not deemed "legitimate" contributors to the academic community. They may produce fine pastors and missionaries (which is an excellent and praiseworthy aim), and an occasional graduate may develop a strong enough track record academically to be accepted into a good grad school or to gain a professorship. Yet, within the culture of academia, these institutions are not well regarded. Indeed, some of them intentionally choose this path because of their commitment to rather exclusively focusing upon the provision of "practitioner"-oriented training. So, what I have to say about SATS is not meant to be an indictment of their institutional integrity or the validity of their accreditation. I simply mean that, within the culture of theological academia, they’ve got a long way to go before they are recognized and respected on a very wide scale. CTBS, on the other hand, already has far-reaching connections within the academic community in Europe, Australia, and North America.

North, I don't mean to direct this at you, but just wish to air my thoughts to the world here:
Behind my observations here lies the conviction that, for someone seeking out a career in academia or advancement in graduate school, the fact that your degree is accredited is not necessarily enough. I think all of us here would acknowledge that this is so, and I know that we've had discussions to this effect before. The reputation of the school is a highly significant factor. A college or seminary to which one might apply for a faculty position is going to be less interested in whether your school is recognized by the government of South Africa or Belgium than with whether your school is respected by the theological community. In other words, the stature of the institution at which you studied, and the stature of the individual(s) with whom you studied, will be what matters most. In today's global culture, there is good reason why some American students have chosen to study at Cambridge, Manchester, Oxford, Basel, Heidelberg, Stellenbosch, and places of this calibre. Conversely, there is good reason why few American students are studying at umpteen other overseas institutions. These institutions, and their faculty members, while perfectly credible in their own right, simply haven't distinguished themselves in such a way as to compete with the credibility of a Duke, Chicago, Harvard, or Emory. Simply stated, they are not institutions of international stature. Governmental recognition simply isn't going to achieve the same impact as the name recognition of a James Torrance or Markus Barth or David Bosch (not all living, just examples). An applicant's viability will be less impacted by whether the name of the institution from which he or she graduated appears in a registry of accredited institutions than by whether that institution's name shows up in scholarly journals, on the back of significant books, or at the meetings of scholarly societies. Members of the theological community do not live in isolation from their peers in other regions of the world. Rather, they are very much part of a global community. The greater likelihood is that one's potential employer will already have had a certain amount of exposure to the applicant's alma mater, and will have formulated some sort of impression or opinion of this institution. If a potential employer has no familiarity with one's alma mater, this does not bode well for that applicant.

Of course, there is the occasional student who is able to get a great deal of utility out of a lesser-recognized foreign credential; yet, truth be told, I would estimate that a good 90-95% of these were exceptional individuals who already had established themselves within the academic community, or at least had a good foot in the door. Thus, for them, less was at stake. I think it's important for us to keep bringing up this point here. If this forum is going to be devoted, in part, to discussing the aspirations that some of us have of becoming legitimate participants in the academic community, this discussion must be guided by a painfully honest realism.

Hope you all don't mind terribly my sharing these observations here. I genuinely don't mean to come across as pushy or arrogant--just honest and realistic.

Blessings!