"Substantial disinvestment" in distance education?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by oxpecker, May 7, 2003.

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  1. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

  2. jcryan

    jcryan New Member

    I wonder how many "senior academics" have had first-hand experience with distance learning. Though not even a junior academic myself, I've at least been a DL student and DL educator, sometimes during the same day. I think that web discussion boards, such as the one I'm using through Lancaster, are more than adequate modes of stimulating "late night" argument. It's just that some individuals may prefer the contact; it's not that the lack of face-to-face contact in education is inadequate in itself. IMHO
     
  3. MarkIsrael@aol.com

    [email protected] New Member

    "the machine doesn't have an impact"

    "David Barnard, president of the University of Regina, said in a recent interview that there is a trend to 'a substantial disinvestment' in computer-based distance education.
    He said the problem is that the machine doesn't have an impact."


    It would be interesting to see David Barnard face off with Arthur C. Clarke.

    Clarke said that electronics have made learning interesting for the first time: that for all previous generations, learning was of necessity boring, but today's children have to be pulled kicking and screaming away from their electronic learning toys.
     
  4. Oherra

    Oherra New Member

    Jcryan,

    I tend to agree that the lack of face to face contact isn’t inadequate. I’m only starting my second course with AIU but I feel like I know my classmates really well, better than I knew anyone in my associate degree program when I attended class on campus.

    We are enrolled in a cohort and will follow the same schedule throughout our degree program at AIU. With the student profiles we read about each other and the required discussion posts I think I actually communicate with the other students online far more than I did while sitting in class. In an on campus class the typical method of instruction was lecture based, you filed into class just in time for it to start, found a seat by someone you hardly knew, and took notes until the end of class when you all left as fast as you could to go home. Save for my roommate, I don’t really remember talking to many people at all in my on campus courses. Perhaps the experience would have been different if we weren’t in “night school” but after working all day and sitting through a 4 hour class none of us really felt up to socializing.
     
  5. Han

    Han New Member

    Oherra - I don't disagree that some dynamics are lost with DL, but some are gained as well. Additionally, you have to realize that there are many in rural areas that would never have the opportunity for a college education without DL. One house every few miles does not make for a large enough headcount to sustain a college. That being said, I have forwarded the below comment to the editor:

    Being both a DL student and a rural resident, from the research I have conducted, your article does not only go against the current trend, but also the future trend for rural students. This is the case for certificates, Bachelor’s, Master’s degrees, and life time learning individuals. I would be happy to talk to you about my experience in Northern California, where I live in a rural area, with a vineyard, currently plotting out an orchard, and many of our neighbors raise livestock. I am attending the University of Tulsa MBA program, a fully AACSB accredited program, where I will graduate in July.

    I am not sure of the reputation of the University of Regina in distance learning, but there are a great number of prestigious schools who would disagree with the statements made in your article. I also have contacts with many in the field of education that can show the trends and the reasoning behind the trends, if you are interested . Please contact me if you would like any further information.

    It is critical for those who live in rural areas to know that they have a choice in education, and I am worried that this article does not portray the true trend or the opportunities that residence of rural areas are offered. Responsible reporting will correct any injustice made to the field of distance learning.

    Thank You,

    Kristie Hansen
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Kristie: Yup. Getting posted to a rural area is what got me going on DL for myself and turned me into an unreasonable partisan of it.
     
  7. Han

    Han New Member

    It is funny, I will debate anyone (since I now actually know the facts), except my family on this issue. I see this as the opportunity of a lifetime - Hi, name name is Kristie and I am addicted to DL and degreeinfo.com.
     
  8. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Kristie,

    You have a compelling argument for DL. I hope that the editor will publish your comment.
     
  9. Homer

    Homer New Member

    "He said when people are asked about their most significant learning experience, "it's not reading a web page. Probably it's a teacher or professor or a group of people you argued with late into the night."...."

    Right. He asked people a specific question and got "probable" answers:

    Barnard: "What was your most significant learning experience?"

    Student #1: "It wasn't reading a web page. Probably it was my argument with Professor X that continued late into the night..........until we both probably passed out after smoking a significant amount of probable weed."

    Student #2: "It wasn't reading a web page. Probably it was my argument with this group of people, in a probable biker bar, that continued into the night which probably resulted in a significant number of probable arrests."
     
  10. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Someone actually found an article on the net from The Western Producer. When I was growing up we kept a copy in the outhouse for reading an other purposes. It's a farm magazine that was published, I believe, by the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool.

    The University of Regina is the 2nd best university in Saskatchewan. There are only 2 and I wouldn't have known they offered DL courses.
     
  11. Han

    Han New Member

    Here is the response from the Editor:

    Thanks for your comments. It is interesting that
    someone from the U.S. would be reading our paper
    in Canada!.
    Re the U of R president, he was noting the trend in the U.S. — and suggested it was coming to Cda — that the big money distance ed systems were getting is not happening any more. I'm not sure of the source of his beliefs but he is a learned fellow and this
    is his area of expertise. On the same page of the
    paper we also carried a more complimentary article
    about the advantages of distance ed to rural people.
    So we were responsible in carrying both sides.
    Diane rogers, Farm lIving editor
     
  12. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    There's a important point here.

    While they were asked about their "most significant learning experience", they seem to actually be describing their most emotionally engaging learning experience.

    Frankly, I think that a lot of people can't tell the two apart.

    For them the emotional charge associated with relationships is what they most rmember about their college years, and what they are most apt to remember when asked. They are less apt to describe the reading that they did. They won't volunteer the long and slightly desperate hours that they spent in the library stacks or pounding out required papers.

    We might be learning a great deal in emotionally unengaging circumstances, but we would not be apt to label these periods as the big events in our personal lives.
     
  13. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    "He (Barnard) said when people are asked about their most significant learning experience, "it's not reading a web page. Probably it's a teacher or professor or a group of people you argued with late into the night."

    Here is another example of making educational decisions based on feelings, rather than facts. What does this have to do with the effectiveness of distance learning? Can Dr. Barnard provide any research data that shows that students consistently learn worse via DL than in live classrooms? No, he can't.

    Media comparison research since the 1930s has shown that mediated instruction (e.g. correspondence, audiotape, videotape, cable telecourses, videoconferencing and web-based) and "traditional" instruction show no significant difference when it comes to student learning. It is true that most student who are surveyed about whether they would RATHER be in class or online choose the former. However, when you test students who receive traditional vs. DL instruction, they score the same.

    The anti-DL crowd loves to tout the fact that students "do not learn better from machines". However, they neglect to mention that they do not learn any worse either.

    So, where does that leave us? Right where we should be. The role of technology in education is to extend our capabilities and solve educational problems. Where live instruction is available and feasile to learners, DL is usually not needed. Where live instruction is not available or feasible, DL offers a viable alternative. I have yet to see any credible and replicated research that suggests that distance learners receive a poorer quality education than "traditional" learners.

    Tony Piña
    School of Education
    California State University, San Bernardino
     
  14. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    By the way, sales for Blackboard and WebCT, the two most popular course management systems for distance learning, have increased, not decreased. Also, a quick glance at the latest issue of Bears' Guide will show that the number of degree programs via distance learning has increased markedly. I'm hoping that the two online masters programs that I am helping to develop at La Sierra University make it to the next version of Bear & Bear.

    I'd like to know where Dr. Barnard gets his "information". "Substantial disinvestment" indeed!

    Tony Piña
    CSUSB
     
  15. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Tony - you are exactly right about no significant difference - ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. But are all other things equal between DL and on-ground programs?

    The concern I have with DL isn't the media, it is the resources and policies that many DL oriented schools put into their programs. Far too many schools look for fast bucks in DL, not for quality programs. As I concluded in a recent presentation on this topic (quoting "What's the Difference" by IHEP):

    "Factors other than media may be far more significant in impacting outcomes – student motivation, instructors, learning tasks and learner characteristics."

    Regards - Andy


     
  16. dlkereluk

    dlkereluk New Member

    The Western Producer is no longer published by the SWP.

    The University of Regina is the 2nd best university in Saskatchewan. There are only 2 and I wouldn't have known they offered DL courses. [/QUOTE]

    They have done so for a few years now. SIAST also provides some DL opportunities. There is more info about DL courses in Saskatchewan at
    http://www.campussaskatchewan.ca/pages/courses/browse.php3

    I'm becoming less than thrilled with some of the service that I've been getting lately from the Alberta institution that I'm currently enrolled at, so I might just avail myself of some of the local offerings.
     
  17. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    30 years ago I used to sample single malts with the scawniest Melville Millionaire to lace on skates. Maybe that was that malt liquor.
     
  18. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Andy,

    I agree with you completely. The research is clear that the delivery system is NOT the primary factor in student achievement. Student motivation, quality of instuctional design and teaching methodologes influence learning more than the delivery system.

    My point is that those who claim that distance learning is inferior to classroom based learning don't have anything tangible upon which to base that claim. You are absolutely correct that there is a lot of junk instruction being foisted on learners in the name of "distance education". However, there is at least as much junk being foisted in traditional classrooms. Good instruction is good instruction, regardless of whether it is being delivered over television, internet or live classroom. Same with poor instruction.

    Phipps & Merosotis, the authors of "What's the Difference?" rightly point out many of the holes and weaknesses in the research literature on distance learning. However, their report is riddled with the same weaknesses for which they take others to task. They blast DL proponents for weak methodology on one page and then make evaluative statements based on anecdotal evidence on another. By and large, I think that "What's the Difference?" makes many salient points and I cite the report several times in my dissertation, but there are many flaws in it as well (too many to report here).

    Tony Piña
    Faculty, CSU San Bernardino
     
  19. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    In Australia. if you have don't have distance learning then you don't have education in many places. This country, for about fifty year at least, have had distance learning for primary school children. It began with the "School of the Air" for primary school children on cattle and sheep stations(ranches) in the outback, where the nearest school was often between 200 - 400 miles away by air. The children would communicate with the teacher and other students by radio and often pedal radio in the early days at that! The school still exists today because it works.

    Rural and remote communities have the same the same right to education as those that live in the cities. People who work and support families and are unable to attend bricks and mortar universities have rights as well.

    Computer technologies in the form of CBT's are now more often than not utilised for corporate training because of the certain quality and the ability to work training around the business requirements. A global company can educate its staff anywhere in the world about its product or services at a very low cost.

    The reality is that this mode suits many communities and, particularly, the global market place. What a great concept that you can attend a lecture given half way around the world by a prominent person by looking at and listening to a computer.

    The train has left the station and it isn't coming back. It sounds to me that the university is attempting to drive forward whilst looking into the rear vision mirror. It has no idea where education is going. and will most likely crash.
     
  20. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Bill Dayson & Ebbw Vale: well said.
     

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