"Is Yale worth its price?"

"Harvard or Yale can cost a fortune, but the theory goes that the cost of a prestigious diploma will pay off in future earnings. Many who've studied the numbers disagree."
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Savingforcollege/P36742.asp

("Is Yale worth its price?" is MSN's choice of headline.)

 

It's an interesting article. What is the return on investment? It seems to me that there are many graduates out there who didn't go to Harvard, Yale or Princeton and seem to be doing much better than their Ivy League counterparts.

 

The Price of Yale

Top colleges don't cost that much more than better regional private universities. The question of public vs. private is a more reasonable one in terms of ROI.

Still, it depends a lot on the particular area of study. People who hire MBAs and lawyers are a lot more status-conscious, in my observation, than those who hire engineers. People who hire engineers are interested in finding people who can do the job; the MBA types and fancy law firms are also concerned with external appearances. If you're sending out a recent business school grad as a "consultant" and billing $200-$400/hr, that person needs to be top-tier. If you want a job in an academic or narrow field, department reputations matter more than university ranking.

One should also remember that the top private colleges with huge endowments (Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.) are usually need-blind on their admissions, so if one can't afford it as an undergraduate, the university picks up the slack. That's another reason why admission is so competitive.

 

You have to factor-in the contacts one would make at an Ivy League school. As mentioned by SanDiegogeek, in certain fields reputation and contacts are essential.

As far as actual education, I think it would be interesting to give subject tests to BA graduates from Ivy League and state universities, and see how they perform.

 

You have to factor-in the contacts one would make at an Ivy League school. As mentioned by SanDiegogeek, in certain fields reputation and contacts are essential.

As far as actual education, I think it would be interesting to give subject tests to BA graduates from Ivy League and state universities, and see how they perform.

 

Like so many other questions that have been asked on this forum, the answer may well be, "It depends," and may require puting a finer point on the question to get a specific answer. If you're talking about undergraduate degrees, the question might be, "Is a BA in English Lit. from Harvard worth 10 times more (or whatever the difference actually is) than a BA in English Lit. from UMass?" Personally, I'd say "no." On the other hand, you might also ask, "Is a BA in Biochemistry from Harvard worth 10 times more than the same degree from UMass?" The answer might be "yes" especially if it means the difference between getting into medical school versus not getting into medical school. Similary, an MBA from Harvard might be worth more than an MBA from UMass in terms of the potential earnings of the graduates. Clearly there would be exceptions but I'd bet than on average, Harvard MBAs have substantially higher incomes 10 years post-grad than do UMass MBAs. This is just my opinion based on casual experience and I am willing to concede that I could be wrong. BTW, I just used UMass as an example as it's a solid school with a good reputation, I've no reason to think of it negatively.
Jack

 

Plumbdog: "As far as actual education, I think it would be interesting to give subject tests to BA graduates from Ivy League and state universities, and see how they perform."


DG1: That is an excellent idea. Do the GRE folks ever publish their results by school?

 

No.

Nosborne, JD

 

I did hear a study on the radio (NPR-National Public Radio) that found that people that were admitted to Ivy League schools were successful because of “who they are.”

Students were accepted to Ivy League schools because they were exceptional in some sense weather it was intelligence, motivation, dedication, etc. The study showed that these intelligent, motivated, dedicated students would have been a success based on those qualities, not the school in which they earned their degree. The fact that they had a Harvard MBA would not hurt but the study concluded that they would reach basically the same end point if they had had a UNF MBA.

I am sure quite a few people graduate from Ivy League schools and, because of who they truly are, never succeed.

 

I concur with the opinion expressed above. Most of them are intelligent and hardworking individuals. Ivy League students who are not very intelligent or hardworking are usually from famous families. George W. Bush is one example of a former Ivy League student who might not be very intelligent but is from a prominent family. He is successful by every standard.

 

I also have to add that Jeb Bush who is very intelligent and from a prominent family is also successful even though he attended a state university in Texas. An intelligent and hardworking person will likely succeed in life whether or not he or she attended an Ivy League school. I also think that a diploma from an Ivy League college will definitely help the holder to be one step ahead of others.

 

I don't think there is any dispute that an intelligent student is more likely to succeed than the average person regardless of where they earn their degree. However, what is in dispute is the degree of success: will that same intelligent student enjoy a higher degree of success if they attend Yale as opposed to attending some state school. Having read Ehrenberg's book and spoken to him in person here at Cornell, as well as based on my own experiences at both Cornell and CUNY Queens College, I'd have to agree with Ehrenberg's position over Dale's. The difference is not necessarily in terms of quality of education (although that certainly is a factor) but rather in terms of employer perception and student services. All one has to do is compare the job listings at Cornell Career Services with the job listings at Queens College Career Services to see the difference in terms of opportunities. Even if the Queens College graduate may be as good as or better than the Cornell graduate, don't expect that Queens College graduate to get the job if (a) he doesn't know about it or (b) the employer specifically requires an Ivy League degree to be considered for the position (and yes this is often the case, in fact some are even more specific and require a certain SAT/GRE/GMAT/whatever score in addition to an Ivy League degree!).

For anyone interested in this topic I would highly recommend visiting the Cornell Higher Education Research Institute's website, located at http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/cheri/ Click on "Working Papers" and "Conferences" to get a slew of recent papers about this subject and other higher education issues. I'd also highly recommend Ehrenberg's book "Tuition Rising: Why College Costs So Much" which although primarily focuses on tuition costs does touch on this issue and others.

 

I think that Ivy graduates would probably rate high on the GRE, based on their selective admissions policies (George W. excepted), but on the other hand there has been some accusations of grade inflation at Harvard. I've noticed that many of the college bowl competitions have been won by non-Ivy universities. Someone should do a study on this.

 

Consider English-language universities offering Ph.D.-level programs in philosophy.

Here's the latest Philosophical Gourmet Report breakdown of the best programs by specialty, chosen by polling professional philosophers themselves. Scroll down:

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown.htm

The ivy league does very well. But not always. If you want applied philosophy, medical ethics or something like that, it just so happens that philosophers rate Bowling Green State University as one of the six "Excellent" programs in the English-speaking world, while Yale isn't notable in this area.

At the doctoral level at least, what makes the ivy league strong isn't the fact that people fall to the floor and lose control of their bladders when they hear the word "Yale". It's that ivy league schools often have productive departments strong in many specialties. But other schools are pretty good too, and not always the ones that you would expect.

I think that Rutgers in New Brunswick (#1 in the United States) and the University of Arizona (#8) have better overall departmental reputational scores among philosophers than Yale (#16) or Johns Hopkins (#36). (There are ~100 philosophy doctoral programs in the US.)

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.htm

 

Bill is absolutely correct in this. It is especially important to note several things in this regard. The first is that persons who earn PhDs in Philosophy are aiming themselves at academia and so you better believe that they all pay attention to "who came from where" and "who supervised whose dissertation." The second is related to publications, and so demonstrating an ability to get published, even before receiving your PhD can often mean the difference between being hired as an adjunct and being hired for the take-out window. Having your named added to the "authors list" of an established, well known, well published senior professor is a huge thing. (Let's face it, in the field of Philosophy there are a few professors who could get their grocery lists published if they wanted). Finally, I think it's important to point out that the Philosophical Gourmet Report is the product of one guy. He is a smart guy who knows philosophy and, amazingly, keeps abreast of a huge amount of information such as who's being hired where and how much are they making, who specializes in what and how often are they publishing, etc. but in the final analysis, the ratings are the product of a single individual.
Regardless of all that, the original question relates to whether an ivy league education is worth its cost. My answer continues to be "It depends." But if forced to give a yes-or-no answer I'd say
"no." I think a smart, motivated individual can succeed or even excel, regardless of the source of their education.
Jack