I once knew a Lutheran minister who had two religious masters degrees. I don't remember specifically what they were. He moved away to take a PhD at the University of Toronto in something like ancient middle eastern history. So it is possible.
It could be either[the PhD is regularly offered in Theology or Biblical studies not just the ThD], but the DTh[Thd} is a less seen degree these days. As a qualification re the Mth, in some RA ATS USA seminaries, as Western, the ThM is a four year (not 1 or 2 year) grad masters (with the MDiv as prerequisite) allowing one to begin in some schools using the coursework mode the PhD in Theology with only about half the work required (as at the RA Baptist Bible Seminary). Elsewhere the Mth is about the same duration as an MA. But either would be suitable for entering a PhD in a related discipline. Were the doc program by thesis or research only then a significant writing project may be a prerequisite part of the masters for admission into the doc. One should find many opportunities to enter a PhD in Biblical/theological areas with only a MA. There are exceptions as I believe Dallas Theological Seminary is where the four year ThM is , I think, required for admission to the PhD or else extra work is required. The ACCS DMin which I am doing is significantly reduced in coursework because I have the MDiv/ThM not just the MA. And I am glad that at least these three schools: Baptist Bible Seminary, DTS, and ACCS perceive the difference in the two types of masters in Theology. The masters and the doc would have to be cognate I would think. One could not likely go from a masters in systematic theology to a doc in 'Old Testament.' As one looks at those seeking employment in the Evangelical Theological Society newsletter, it is generally the case that a MDiv, and even the four year ThM too, was taken before the PhD work. So it seems common that the applicant for a US position for teaching Bib/Theo has accumulated around 7-8 years of full time grad study not 4-5 as may be the norm in other disciplines. My pal Ed K. who regularly reads theological research for a living, I understand, sees the one with the longer ThM as a rule more able to do effective research in the field than one with the MA or MDiv only. I don't know why I belabor these points except to provide a weak reason for why at 62 I am still a student. Anyway, frequently one goes from MTh into a PhD with little difficulty!
ie, in some schools as Western the ThM is a four year program which includes [not in addition to the three year Mdiv]. Also the DTS thM is four years. Western also offers a 2 year MA in Exegetical Theology which is another type of masters.
Thanks, Dennis and Bill. Bill, I guess you have to have something to do with your time, especially at 62. Seriuosly, I always enjoy your posts and find them very helpful. Would the Doctor of Worship Studies at Robert Webber's Institute for Worship Studies qualify one to teach (assuming the IWS eventually becomes accredited)?
--- It would be difficult to obtain employment in an accredited school with an unaccredited doc degree. recall that even if a school later becomes accredited your degree technically would not be were you to graduate prior to that achievement (tho probably it would make little practical difference). After a brief perusal of Webber's school website there do appear to be some good things as a qualified faculty. As I understand the doc is awarded after 32 units (4 courses x8 units each, right? ) plus a project. That's about the reqs of a Dmin, EXCEPT the USA DMin of 32units would be based on a 90 hr MDiv!!!. So is possibly a little modest in reqs. Yet, I tend to have bad feelings about a school which claims accreditation from a nonrecognized accreditor. The webpage is correct that since the school began in 1999, it has reason not to expect RA OK this early. But, the youthful age of the school is no proof of it later garnering RA or even genuine NA as TRACS! Were I you, I'd be very careful. Do you really not suppose that genuine accreditation would be valuable to you in the future? And given too that at Webber's institute some time on campus is required, and its tuition is not cheap, why not enroll rather in a (mostly) USA DL RA accredited Dmin program or even an UK, AUS, or SA GAAP doc in worship? Whatever you decide, good "luck."
ABD for PhD = ThM? I have a friend who just successfully defended his dissertation at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He tells me that the school awarded him a ThM en route and regularly does for students who "stop" at the ABD level. Is this a standard practice? Steven King
Re: ABD for PhD = ThM? --- Steven I have not ever heard that. Or maybe I did read of that once, but cannot recall where?! I have heard of getting an MPhil instead of a DPhil were the dissertation not finished. At Dallas TS the four year ThM is the standard prerequisite for entrance into the PhD. That is, the ThM follows not any PhD work. Following the ThM is three more years minimum of study.(30-32 hrs plus dissertation). Yet elsewhere the ThM is sort of thought of as "part" of the doc: Rob Wiggins, registrar at Western once told me the ThM was considered half way toward the PhD. As said above if one has the ThM instead of just the MDiv, then one needs to finish fewer hours at Baptist Bible seminary (37 hrs to be exact as I recall) rather than 60(???) if one only has the Mdiv. Also Fuller reduces the amount needed for the PhD if one has a ThM(but only by 2/7). At ACCS I only need do 21 units plus 9 hr project or 30 hrs whereas those with only MAs must complete a total of 60-66 hours! I hope you'll excuse me for seeing the justice of that! Yet in contrast at Unizul I must do the same amount of work even with the four year ThM as I would do if I only had my one year MA from Point Loma! It seems to make less difference in a research program than in a coursework one what sort of master degree(s) one has. But my guess is that one with the four year ThM would find the research easier to do than one with only the MA...at least I sure hope so
Hey steven, "standard" practice, I would doubt, although possible. Bill, would your friend consider an MA with Old Testament fm. TEDS and a B.D. from Heythrop College (UoL) the equivalent to an American M.Div. or Th.M? ?? Chris
Bill, Thanks for your response. Yes, accreditation is very important to me, and so is cost and amount of required residency. It's just that I haven't found any programs, at the doctoral level, that offer what IWS does. Also, in the area of worship/liturgy, I'd be more interested, I think, in a doctorate with some coursework rather than a research-only doctorate. Of course, I've still got to get a master's first.
--- Why no. Everyone considers the MA from TEDS the equivalent of the PhD from anywhere else. Too bad TEDS is named after TTS of Indiana though! Actually I can see that interesting combo as the equal of the MDiv...doubt it about the ThM. But if it makes you feel good , go ahead and believe it (hee, hee). Heyworth offers a doc too, doesn't it? I looked them over once. Western considered my MA the first year toward the MDiv and my EdD coursework (about 30 units) the second year. So I only had to finish one more year full time for the Mdiv Equivalency and another year full time for the ThM. But as I was teaching Junior High fulltime and doing part time church work too, it took me from 1990-1994 to complete the Western work!
Bill, it's too bad that church takes so much time, isn't it? Things could get done much more quickly and efficiently without it! Chris
ThM en route to PhD I am currently enrolled in a program that is doing exactly this. Due to a lack of prior theological degrees they want me to supplement my prior grad work with a first grad level theo. study. The research is designed to all work toward the PhD - though there is a clear ThM thesis completed. Jeff
Hey, Michael! This is a very solid program, and it would be difficult to improve upon the calibre of individuals who provide the program's leadership and instruction. I took the IWS Certificate in Worship Studies, and at one time gave some consideration to enrolling in the DWS. However, I ultimately ruled it out because of the accreditation issue, and because the IWS literature states explicitly that this degree is not intended to prepare professors of worship/liturgy. Indeed, the literature indicates that, if one desires to gain a professorship, he or she should think in terms of enrolling in a PhD/ThD. At the same time, however, I am aware of two or three individuals teaching at respected institutions who are enrolled in the DWS. So, just as some individuals find their way into professorships with a DMin, a practitioner's degree, it is not entirely out of the question that one could gain a position with the DWS, also a practitioner's degree. Yet, at this point in the development of IWS's program and reputation, I think it would be hard to characterize this as something about which one could be quite confident. Blessings! Cory Seibel
To respond to your initial question, in many overseas education systems, the progression from MTh to PhD would be quite common. In the UK system, this is the only move "up" for the MTh holder (unless he wanted to enroll in one of the growing number of UK DMin programs). Only one institution in all of the UK offers a ThD. All the rest offer the PhD. Several South African schools offer MTh holders the opportunity to enroll in the PhD, including Natal, Free State, Pretoria and Rand Afrikaans (in this case, actually the DLitt et Phil). As you know, the DTh is a common part of the South African degree nomenclature; yet, it is not the only option for the MTh holder. Indeed, Pretoria and Free State would likely limit you to the PhD, as their DD and DTh programs seem to be intended more for students from within their own denomination, the Dutch Reformed Church. Blessings!
Doctor of Divinity? Corey, Is that "D.D." a Doctor of Divinity? Is it a professional doc? Like the D.Min? I would be a bit scared to use the D.D. Everybody might think it's honorary. What are your thoughts? Roscoe
Of all the South African theological faculties, the DD, as best I know, is offered only at Pretoria. It is a research based doctorate essentially the same as the PhD. As best I can tell, it would parallel the DTh/ThD offered at other South African institutions, like Potch and Free State, alongside the PhD. From surveying the landscape of the South African theological community, I have drawn the conclusion that Pretoria is one of the top two or three players in producing university/seminary faculty. Among the UP alumni who presently hold faculty positions throughout the country, the majority seem to hold the DD rather than the PhD. So, apparently the Pretoria DD is highly regarded in South Africa. Blessings!
Source for Distance Learning Christian Doctoral Programs Could anyone direct me to a source that provides information on accredited and/or unaccredited seminaries. I have completed a Master of Sacred Literature-Practical Theology, have another M.S.L.-Bible in progress and I'm looking for a seminary that uses the European model for a Doctor of Biblical Studies, Doctor of Sacred Literature, D.Min. These seminaries can be foreign or domestic they just need to be conservative and hold a high view of Scripture. Any directions, suggestions of sources, actual links or suggested seminaries would be greatly appreciated. Shawn
