NWCU Law, so far.

Well, after much deliberation and interesting discussions (thank you so very very much!) on this board, I decided to attend Northwestern California University School of Law, a distance learning law school (www.nwculaw.edu). If I am successful, meaning I pass the Baby Bar and General Bar, I will move to California and attempt to practice in some form or fashion. I have not completely abandoned my MBA/accounting studies, but I will temporarily pause so that I can devote time to the study of law.

I may periodically report in this thread my experiences so that others may benefit.

I received a set of audio cassettes, my Lexis log in, and access to their online classroom discussions and course materials.

Although my official start date is next week, I have been learning legal terminology by reading and listening to tapes, attempting to learn the language and mindset.

I've been lurking on the school's discussion boards, learning the style of the professors, trying to understand the questions and answers provided, and figure out how to apply study tips posted so I can get organized. The profs are VERY active and make an effort at mentorship that I probably would not have at a large, ABA approved brick and mortar school.

As far as I can tell, the students are from diverse backgrounds including but not limited to MDs, nurses, business owners, allied legal professions, and technology professionals. They all seem exceptionally smart and disciplined.

I had a question about a cyberlaw issue (my day job is developing a data driven website) so I used my Lexis log in to find some articles, cases, etc. Because of listening to the tapes I was sent by NWCU and the introductory materials, I was able to at least do a decent search and uncover the issues, a far cry from where I was a week ago. Perhaps someday I will be able to apply what I'm learning

I did not understand why I am driven to the study of the law. I am addicted to shows such as Law & Order, American Justice, Cold Case Files, The New Detectives, and Court TV, but that did not explain sufficiently this need to know about the law.

What I think is REALLY driving this desire is that so many things I want to do as far as independent business, internet/software development, customer service, marketing, are governed/driven by laws that I do not understand and therefore limit my access.

Now that I know what I'm lacking and why....ONWARD!


P.S. Failure is not an option. This undertaking will probably impact my self-esteem greatly, and will likely be the most memorable challenge of my life.

 

Hey WannaJD all I can say is wow! I am impressed by your decisiveness and direction. I have felt the same pull off and on for years. While I have assumed I might be able to secure a position in a standard ABA program both the cost and academic competition have kept me from commiting to it. At the same time I keep coming back to it over and over again. I really believe I am missing out by not going down that road. At this point, as a single parent it isn't something I can undertake immediately. I definately wish you well and hope that you can keep us informed on your progress. Go get'em!

 

Thank you for the kind words. I find it hilarious that I appear to have direction! I have been totally confused, flailing about, because I'd been trying to justify the reasons for my interests using fiscal measure and market opportunity. Life doesn't really work this way. What we are called to do usually has little to do with money or demand.

What fascinates me is that I ALREADY think a bit like a lawyer. I have read a couple of the questions presented by the profs, and tried to answer them before reading the answers of the other more learned students. I find that I think in a similar fashion and ask the same...my WORLD is debate and I never find that there are answers, only more questions (this is a good and bad thing).

My advice to others is that they not ignore the pull you speak of, if possible. Someday you'll have the opportunity. I waited about ten years, myself.

The moment I made the decision to do this I felt a peace I haven't felt in a long time.

 

.....and that, alone, is priceless, is it not???

Congratulations and best of luck!!!!!

 

NW

WannaJD,

I was considering NW at one time before deciding to get my MBA. The guy who runs that place is a total jerk. They are an ok place for what they are, but the owner is a jerk

 

atlas1212 - The guy who runs the place is a total jerk.

John Craparo - Can you tell the readers here what went wrong and why you feel this way? Are you referring to Michael Clancey? This is the first time I remember seeing a criticism of the school or anyone associated with it outside of what anyone things of correspondence law study in general or pass-rates associated with the schools.

 

I called to ask him about the school (I'm not sure what his name was but her often referred to the school as "his school"). I was extremely polite and he was arrogant as hell. He was like, "My school is by far the cheapest and has one of the best bar passage rates out there. If you are concerned about it not being ABA approved, go somewhere else, it's not my problem. I don't want students. I want students who are going to be loyal. "

He was extremely defensive about all the questions I asked. He could be a good guy, but when researching your options for an unaccredited program, you should not be afraid or intimidated out of asking legitimate questions. He was curt to begin with, but when asked questions about the instructors, current bar passage rates or how he compares to other mail order law schools he got legitimately ticked off.

I'm not bashing the guy. I'm just sharing my personal experience. Maybe he was having a bad day, but it completely turned me off from going there. Made the place seem shady as hell. I was already concerned that many of the instructors had their JD's from NW. And the fact that the only bar passage rate listed was from their first year which was like 60% or something like that. When asked about current rates he dodged the issue.

 

Thanks, I hope for their sake that your experience was the exception and not the rule.

Regards,
John

 

John,
Thanks for asking more detailed questions that got to specifics rather than just feelings. Often on this forum we don't get to the "why" or "what" of certain schools. Asking for precise information rather than just accepting the negative was very helpful.

 

Yeah. In hindsight, I'm extremely glad I didn't do mail order law. It is not exactly well thought of here in California. You'll get laughed out of most firms or associations, even if you do pass the bar.

 

Well, that may be true, but I don't plan to work for anyone else. You did notice that there are several people in California on the internet that claim their degree from NWCU. There is even a guy who works in the California treasury with a JD from NWCU. It is on his biography on the government website. And anyway...

I look forward to being laughed at--it usually means I'm making people nervous.

I got laughed at when I was in the Navy years ago (I am female),

I got laughed at when I dropped out of Northwestern University/Evanston IL--an expensive wannabe exclusive private college-- to complete my degree at Univ of New York/Regents,

I got laughed at daily when I sold over $1 million in software and kicked the arses of every top rep in my first year at a small, unknown software company and got way higher commissions than if I had worked for some big F500.

I got laughed at when I applied for programming jobs without a computer science degree, and I'm still making bonuses and building great software in this economy with 20% unemployment in the IT sector.

I was born to do this. Too bad you are so weak that peer pressure would force you to spend $80,000 for your degree.

I believe so strongly that this is the way for me that I find your posts funny and I am reminded of the character "Glum" from the "Gulliver's Travels" cartoons of the 70's...."Yooooool neeeeverrrr maaaaake iiiiiittttt!"

 

Michael - thank you, I always try to understand the "why" in a situation. These public boards can be very annecdotal and severe.

WannaJD - good luck and I hope youlllll maaaaake ittttt. Sound like you have the right attitude, intellectual horsepower, and ambition.

John

 

Hi all

Forgive me if I state the obvious! It seems both posters have very valid and important points of view.

If one wants to practice law, it is almost always best to attend an ABA school. On the other hand $80k is one heck of lot of cash! For many a CA approved law school is a better choice than none.

I am equally sure that law firms that hire on a competitive basis will not rank NWCU highly. WannaJD correctly points out other opportunities for NWCU graduates who are members of bar.

What works for one student may be wrong for next. For WannaJD NWCU seems ideal. For others hoping to be hired by prestigeous law firms it clearly isn't. Just two different but correct and valid opinions. Again, I apologize for my grasp of obvious!

 

I couldn't agree more. However, and I also apologize for =my= "grasp of the obvious", it should be noted that a JD from a lower ranked ABA approved school typically won't get you in the door at a "prestigious" firm. The hiring decisions at those firms are based primarily on pedigree (which becomes a marketing strategy of sorts), so JDs from bottom tier ABA approved schools are probably not much better situated than those with non-ABA approved JDs in terms of landing a position at BIGLAW.

 

I don't know how I missed this post...but I'm just now seeing it.

I've never gotten such brisk treatment from those folks...but then, I did a whole bunch of research and I came to this board first and the people here were very frank about the pertinent issues I should consider. I think Mr. Clancey expects that anyone considering his school should have hashed all that out. I don't know if that is the proper attitude or not, but it is quite possible that this attitude saves him a lot of wasted time. He is not playing the role of salesman or advisor, and I applaud him for his focus. Too many times people will set you up for some high expectation and then when the personal implications hit you in the face, they retreat.

At least he was direct. Regarding the bar pass rate...these are statistics that should be examined, but in the end, it truly is up to you. No matter how great the education, there is only so much the school can do to improve the rates. There is a lot of study and dedication involved, which requires the self-discipline of a tri-athlete.

I know you didn't get the chance to see for yourself, but my gut feeling told me to go with it and get started, and since I've been lurking on their boards, I have the confidence that these guys know their stuff and are able to teach. I really need personal attention at times, but for some reason face to face, I cannot get professors to understand me well enough to teach me. I know I'm bright, but a lot of stuff gets in the way, including the prejudices of the professor. In addition, I have a few shortcomings that inhibit me in the classroom. These problems are relieved a bit via distance learning.

The older I get, the more I appreciate people not beating around the bush. Sometimes it is hard to take, but boy, it saves you time. Many people I've met in the professional world come across curt and uncaring. I find it is up to me to cross the barrier to tap into their knowledge.

Again, I can't thank the people here enough for allowing me to pick their brains. I started out by b#$%ing and moaning about how unfair the ABA situation is, etc., and people here were sophisticated enough to skip over my ranting and point me to the real issues and real life.

I agree with the perspectives of John Craparo and Homer that you have to do what is right for you. I find that the hardest thing for me is to separate the issues properly so that I can do what is right for me. In other words, I could waste more years pining on the lack of prestige of distance learning law, and miss the value of the education itself.

I owe quite a bit to the folks here for doing the "issue spotting" for me.

 

I considered NWC a couple of years ago because of the low tuition. However, when I received the enrollment packet I discovered I had to purchase alot of their materials.

The total of the tuition and the materials was just about equal to many of the other schools that don't charge separately for materials.

Is this still the case? What was your total charges for tuition and materials?

 

NWCU asks for $690 down payment and $195/month for 10 months, for a total of $2640. The books are expensive, as well as some of the supplementary tapes (NWCU includes 31 audio tapes with the tuition fee), but I've gone to www.lawswap.com and Amazon for a savings of about 35-50%. If you buy retail, you would spend about $500-600 per year on books. Their booklist and link to pricing is on their website at www.nwcu.edu. The fact that you can buy the stuff separate means you have more flexible pricing and you are not locked into their selection: if I don't like Emanuel's outlines I can certainly purchase other products.

I didn't choose NWCU on price relative to other DL schools. Some schools offer a higher tuition, such as Taft, and provide video lectures. I don't care for video lectures because I am connected by the umbilical cord to my laptop...so video is not the most convenient for me. I'm probably going to spend another $450 on a Baby Bar review as well. I could pay $3000-4000 per year, or go to a brick and mortar and take out a low interest student loan and spend $18000 - $20000/year.

At any rate, I think the dedication to the goal and disciplined study schedule is more of an issue than the price.

There is a school at www.ccls.info that is cheaper but there are fewer students and less community and reinforcement, etc.

 

And a catalog which perpetrates the most appalling butchery of the English language I've seen from a degree-granting institution. EVER. But you're right-- it is the least-expensive CalBar-registered correspondence program out there. If they can swing real (i.e., non-provisional) approval from BPVE to operate, they'll fill a niche for folks who are comfortable absorbing a huge volume of information with little or no feedback but who still need to document "instruction" for Bar Exam eligibility.

Best of luck with NWCU.

 

WannaJD,

Good luck on your pursuit of your JD. Certainly, there are negatives to not pursuing an ABA program.....BUT.....you have weighed all of the options and looked at cost, what you want to do with the degree and figured out how to do it. I wish you the best and based on your attitude I have no doubt you will complete the program. Somewhere, either on this forum or on the net in general I saw a chronology of the route a guy took to his California DL law degree. It was really interesting.

Now a joke based on our discussions of the war.............puhlease don't go to work for the ACLU.....puhlease.

North

 

Is there a reason you did not choose Oak Brook (2700 a year if I am correct) and a higher pass rate. If I read correctly from the NW & Oak Brook site, Oak Brook's rate was 2 to 3 times that of NW depending on the year.

Oak Brook has a definite Christian bent which may be a reason you did not choose them, I do not know. I am also not being critical of your choice just curious.

Again, best wishes!

North