3-year degree for California teacher's credential?

Does anyone know if a 3-year Bachelor's degree, such as the Bachelor of General Studies from Athabasca University, is acceptable for a California teacher's credential?

Naturally, I sent this question to the official e-mail address given at the Website of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, http://www.ctc.ca.gov . The reply was:

"You will need to have a degree from another country evaluated by a foreign transcript evaluating agency. The evaluation must state that the degree which you earned in Canada is equivalent to a Bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited university in the United States. I have included information on the agencies approved for this service in the link below.
http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentialinfo/leaflets/cl635.html "

So, has anyone here had such a degree evaluated by any of the agencies listed there?

Thanks,
Mark Israel

 

A guess is that a 3 year degree would not be considered equivalent, given the 3 questions thread.

A good question would be whether Athabasca gets to keep their 3 year degrees should they gain the American regional accreditation for which they have applied.

 

In short, no. it will not be accepted.

here's what I would do:

first, register to take the C-Set exam in your particular subject area out of state. Look up the website for the "Cset" that is a CA test, then find out how to take it out of state.

then, if you don't pass, take whatever transcripts you have and send them to Cal State U. Fullerton and see if they will accept it as the equivalent. They are a good department.

then, if that doesn't work, don't do another degree until you move to CA because they only accept certain listed in-state programs for equivalency.

I have pushed and pulled on all of these steps. Nothing else will work. trust me.

So don't do another degree hoping somehow that CA will take it. they won't work with you, usually, in advance saying "this will transfer if you do this." they say, "we will evaluate what you have done" or "we will enroll you here."

This is one way CA makes money.

chris

 

Christopher Green writes:

> In short, no. it will not be accepted.

Thanks.

> first, register to take the C-Set exam in your particular subject
> area out of state.

The immediate goal would be for my wife Rosie to get an Emergency Multiple Subject Teaching Permit, so she can teach elementary school. To do that, the official Web page, http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentialinfo/leaflets/cl533p.html , says that she needs (1) a Bachelor's degree, (2) the CBEST (California Basic Educational Skills Test). and (3) a school board willing to sponsor her. It does not say that she needs the CSET (California Subject Examinations for Teachers).

What I'm asking is whether a 3-year Bachelor's degree will meet the first of these requirements.

> then, if you don't pass, take whatever transcripts you have and
> send them to Cal State U. Fullerton and see if they will accept it
> as the equivalent. They are a good department.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. "See if they will accept it as equivalent" -- to what? And if her transcripts are equivalent (to whatever), what will Fullerton give her?

> then, if that doesn't work, don't do another degree until you
> move to CA

Rosie is trying to get a first degree, not "another degree".

 

I have a Canadian friend and she explained that in Canada, it is very different than the U.S. She said that:

• In Canada, a three year college degree (or is it diploma?) is not a bachelors degree. She also said that Canadian college degrees are more oriented towards vocations.
  
• She further said that to get a bachelors degree in Canada, you must attend a university, which offers four-year degrees.

Coincidently, I just spoke to her about this about a week ago. She tried to explain their system, after I asked her if she had a bachelors degree. She does not. She has a 3-year college degree (or is it diploma?).

 

Never mind what are called colleges in Canada; those are *not* American-style undergraduate institutions offering a bachelor's degree.
But what is confusing for an American is that Canadian universities offer both a 3-year BA and a 4-year BA, the latter called an Honors BA. An Honors BA implies that you received decent grades, and it is the only BA that will allow you in Canada to proceed to graduate-level study.

The 3-year BA is a terminal degree, and I believe more generalist in flavor. Nevertheless, you can get one from some very distinguished universities, and it's not a slouch degree. I believe they arose because high school in at least some Canadian provinces lasts a year longer than it does in the US.

So there's certainly no dishonor in a 3-year BA from Canada, provided it comes from one of the better Canadian universities. Now whether a US evaluating agency will certify this as equivalent to a 4-year US BA from Podunk State College, however, I have no idea -- although regrettably I doubt it.

Peter, a longtime American in Canada
(but not schooled here, so I don't know all the answers)

 

> in Canada, it is very different than the U.S.

Not that different. Both my degrees (Bachelor of Science, Master of Computer Science) are from Canada, and are exactly like the US degrees. In Canada, the abbreviation for Bachelor of Science is "B.Sc."; "BS" would be considered offensive.

> She said that: In Canada, a three year college degree (or is it
> diploma?) is not a bachelors degree.

Most Canadian universities offer both 3-year and 4-year Bachelor's degrees. In my Canadian résumé, I explicitly called my B.Sc. a "four-year Bachelor of Science".

> She also said that Canadian college degrees are more
> oriented towards vocations.

A Canadian "college" is like a 2-year community college in the US.
What you get after 2 years is called a "diploma"; the term "Associate's degree" is unknown, but such a "diploma" can in fact be precisely equivalent to a US Associate's degree.

> She further said that to get a bachelors degree in Canada, you
> must attend a university,

That was probably traditionally true, but surfing the Web now, I easily found a non-university (NAIT, the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology) that now offers Bachelor's degrees.

 

Mark, let me save you...!!!

Mark,

Here's the issue. The "no child left behind" act by president Bush insists that no teachers be allowed to teach anymore that are not "highly qualified." The State of CA now interprets this phrase, and will for the next 14 years, as meaning that teachers must be "pre-intern status" to be "highly qualified."

This is not good news for your wife. She can't teach on an emergency permit anymore after passing the C-Best alone because she won't find any districts to sponser her. Unless they are privately funded.

The "no child left behind act" changes everything. As a consequence, there is no more full time teaching based on emergency.

Now, I'm almost positive starting this coming fall, you have to be pre-intern status to teach full time. That means, having passed not only the C-Best but also what is called the "M-Sat" to teach a multiple subject curriculum (K-6). I would highly encourage your wife, first thing, to take the M-Sat.

In some instances, the M-Sat is not necessary if the teacher has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts. In some cases, the M-Sat can be waived if enough of the arts are covered in one's degree. This is out of my area. I'm single subject, High school. I have one friend in my class, though, who did a liberal arts BA and had to take a couple more classes to finish up her "subject matter competency" that attiains what is called in CA "pre-intern status." This is one step beyond "emergency."

This is the same status I'm at, for high school, since I passed the Praxis/SSat tests. Now, the single subject test is called the C-Set since they changed it this month. I passed into "pre-intern" status just before the change. Essentially, you need to be "pre-intern" before you can do your substitute teaching requirement in any credential. For me, this meant passing the equivalent of what now is called the "C-Set." Your wife doesn't need that. She needs the M-Sat.

Do not, I repeat, do not move to CA if you are relying on the C-Best. It is a requirement to substitute teach, but that is all you can do with it now.

Do yourself a favor and don't trust everything that the website you have in front of you says. You need more to teach here. If you have doubts that this is true, just get on the phone with some schools and ask them about it. They will know what this is all about.

Again, depending on your wife's degree, she may have to do very little, if any work to achieve what is called "subject matter competency" to achieve "pre-intern" status. All she needs to do is contact Cal State Fullerton's credentialling office (on the website, just search) and send in a transcript. They will evaluate it, but there will be some expense. I would reccommend this school over some of the others for being helpful. If she has a degree in liberal arts, that will help especially. But the subject matter competency is a huge hurdle now, and CA is soon to become the bane of the west coast when it comes to getting a teaching job.

Like I said above, the schools won't work with you while you are going through a program outside CA. They will say, "send in a transcript" that you have already completed, or come take classes at their institution. They do this to make money. In other words, you can't do a degree anywhere else but in CA (if you want to teach in CA) and know before you get your transcript back from them if any of it will be accepted or not. It's unfair. It's life.

Chris

 

Re: Mark, let me save you...!!!

Important distinction: In California, to bypass the MSAT (I believe now to be re-named the CSET), you need to have a bachelor's degree in Liberal Studies. That is a specific major that provides the grounding to teach *all* of the subjects that elementary teachers must teach.

While I think a B.Ed. (in Canadian terms) would be acceptable, a three-year degree would not. California is a fifth year state, so teacher training is done after the earning of a bachelor's degree. While out of state teachers who did all of the coursework during their BA are accepted, they often find themselves doing additional coursework either pre-service or in-service.

While it is true that "No Child Left Behind" will affect the issuance of emergency credentials that doesn not take effect until 2005. However, individual states and districts may choose to implement sooner. Interestingly, it affects all teachers, even though the ones truly out of compliance (teachers teaching out of subject) are grades 7-12. The concept is great. It's a shame that it is an impossible mandate.


Best of luck!


Tom Nixon

 

thanks Tom

thanks for the clarification on the date, Tom. That's great.

I believe the C-Set is the single subject exam. I think the M-Sat will remain the "M-Sat."

Chris

 

This is not my field but I am going to take a shot at it.

Are there any Masters programs available by distance learning that will give you the courses needed for certification in California. For instance ORU has Masters that you do DL & with summer residency. It might be possible to apply to one of these programs and see if your BA is accepted (ie the requirement for admission is a BA plus GPA). You could then possibly qualify based on the degree being granted and reciprocity (depending on the state from which the degree and certification are earned). I believe Bear and Nixon wrote a book on DL education programs.

It is a sticky situation. You will find some (a British University site I can no longer find) who grant 3 year Canadian and British BA the equivalence to a 4 yr US BA and the Canadian/British BA Honors the equivalence of a US Masters. That is good news........the not so good news of course is that you are here and the US schools may not be convinced of the equivalence.

North

 

Unfotunately, I highly doubt it.

The main problem with teacher Certification and d/l in California, is that the cousres themselves are only one part of the program.

To become certified, one must spend a slave labor semester teaching for free in a public school. "Student Teaching" is about one third of the program and with few exceptions is generally required. The exceptions being mainly if one is hired on an emergency/intern basis (See above discussions for the problem with that).

 

Re: Mark, let me save you...!!!

Christopher Green writes:

> Mark, let me save you...!!!

Thanks, Chris, you may have done just that.

I’m ashamed to say I had never heard of the “No Child Left Behind” Act. The consequences for Rosie are indeed enormous, and you’re right that she should apply for pre-intern status with one or more school districts.

> I believe the C-Set is the single subject exam. I think the M-Sat
> will remain the "M-Sat."

No, effective this month, the MSAT is replaced by the CSET Multiple Subjects Examination, described at http://www.cset.nesinc.com/CS_testguide_MSopener.htm
Here are two school districts’ Web pages indicating that it is required: Los Angeles:
http://www.lateachingfellows.org/tests.shtml
and San Diego:
http://prod031.sandi.net/internprograms/btfp/index.html

> In some cases, the M-Sat can be waived if enough of the arts
> are covered in one's degree. […] All she needs to do is contact
> Cal State Fullerton's credentialling office (on the website, just
> search) and send in a transcript.

Is this the Web page you meant?
http://www.fullerton.edu/cct/msmpptrans.htm

I wonder if the waiver is still possible with the CSET. The Los Angeles Website I referred to above does not mention any alternatives to the CSET. Unfortunately, Fullerton’s Website is out of date: one of their Web pages still mentions only the MSAT: http://www.fullerton.edu/catalog/academic_departments/edel.asp
although another mentions the CSET:
http://www.fullerton.edu/cct/msmpp.htm

Although Rosie can take the CBEST here in Boston, she would apparently have to go to California to take the CSET, so a waiver would be good if it’s possible. I’ll make some phone enquiries.

> She can't teach on an emergency permit anymore after passing
> the C-Best alone because she won't find any districts to
> sponsor her.

You’re probably right. As Tom Nixon says, the date for compliance with the “No Child Left Behind” Act is 2005; but it’s understandable that a school district would not want to hire someone now whom they would have to fire 2 years later. The Web has contradictory information. The following Web pages suggest that the number of teachers on emergency permits in California is going down:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/4041252.htm
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207~12026~952131,00.html

The following Web pages suggest that it is going up:

http://www.teachingquality.org/newsletter/issues/v02/v02n04.pdf
http://www.cta.org/InsideCTA/GovernanceCoordination/RegionalConference.htm

So I phoned the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing to ask whether it was going up or down. Their statistics man phoned me back, and said the latest official figures were for 2000-01. When I asked if he could give me any indication what has been happening since then, he said, “You’re not going to quote me, are you?” But when I said I just wanted advice for my wife, he quite readily advised that going for pre-intern status was a better idea.

Thanks again.

 

Good research, Mark.

I wish this was on the web before I came to CA. But fortunately, PROVIDENTIALLY, I came into town and found someone within two weeks that gave seminars on the old PRAXIS/SSAT tests, passed both of them, so now I'm officially "pre-intern" status.

Unfortunately, North is not correct. Like I said, you can do something DL, but you won't get any advising on the degree while you are doing it. You have to turn in a transcript to a CA approved school to get any feedback; that means you have to do a program acutally in CA to skip the C-SET. Otherwise, you just pass the CSET.

Best wishes to you and your wife. Now that this info is posted, maybe others will be greatly helped.

Chris

 

I have just passed graduation and thinking of choosing teaching profession.. I plan on teaching social studies/history. I was wondering if anyone had any helpful advice on the best way to go about studying for the cset teaching certification Apart from this, I am using cset study guide and have joined some online courses as per referred by my teachers for preparation. I want to know if these things have helped you in cracking this tough exam. Any help would be appreciated. I think that cset is the best researching material I have found in recent days.

CSET study guides

 

I wonder if Mark's wife ever got her teaching credential?

Abner

 

This issue came up previously on this board. I have a 3 year degree that has been evaluated as equivalent by two US organizations.

 

Equivalent to a US 4 year degree?

Abner

 

In some cases yes. For UK and some South African universities the prerequisite to university admittance is having passed certain ordinary and advanced level GCEs. CSUDH accepted two people in my MSQA program with 3-year degrees (1 from SA and 1 from the UK). Some colleges in the US will accept advanced level GCEs for lower division credit. My daughter had to pass several GCE exams before she was accepted into her 3-year Psych degree program.

I have workd with dozens of engineers from Europe who have 3-year engineering degrees and have never heard of a company rejecting such an applicant because of his degree.

In general UK degrees lack the gen ed requirements but concentrate on the major - and in some cases including material that would be post-grad level in the US.

 

Wow! Somebody resurrected an eight year old thread.