Australian and UK PhDs versus U.S. PhDs

My question is general and directed to those who have some knowledge in this area.
I understand that there are a number of U.K, Australian and South African Universities that offer research doctorates by distance learning. How valid are these degrees? Can someone who graduates from a research based DL doctoral program apply for teaching/professorship positions in American colleges?
U.S. doctoral programs are much more demanding and require more time. DL universities like Capella, Walden, Nova Southeastern and the Union Institute require candidates to complete comprehensive examinations and additional coursework before accepting a proposal and dissertation. The UK, African and Australian universities don't have this component in their PhD programs. Does this make these programs inferior?
Thanks
Roy

 

No

 

I went through the same review last year. I even asked some friends who are professors at US colleges.

The general answer is: “it depends”. In niche areas, where there are not a lot of programs offering doctoral level work, but have a high demand, a doctoral degree from a reputable (read GAAP) will work. More generally, a doctoral degree from a US school would be given preference over a foreign school, but a degree from a leading foreign program would be given preference over a lower level US program.

It also depends on where you plan (hope) to teach. A major US school more readily accepts a major foreign degree over Walden, Capella, or Touro. But at the smaller public and private schools a US degree would be better received than a foreign.

Also you need to look at the professional accreditation status.

Confusing, huh. In my case I was comparing Colorado State, University of Alabama-Huntsville, University of Queensland, University of Sydney, and Indiana State and the final ranking was in that order according to professors at Idaho and Alaska-Fairbanks.

I am enrolled at Colorado State.

 

Good luck getting a good position at a good school with a doctorate from Capella, Union, Nova SE, etc.

It would probably be a lot easier with a research doctorate from a major British university.

Whether by classes or independent study ones knowledge of their field has to be strong enough to impress experienced professors and the Brits do take their education seiously.

 

OK, I have some knowledge in this area.
1) Asking, "Are these degrees valid?" is too vague a question. Valid to whom? (or is it "who"?) or Valid for what? Are they legal? Are they the "real, live" schools that people in those other countries actually attend? Are they "as good as" PhDs from the US? How do you define "as good as?" I hope you're catching my drift here, ask a more specific question.
2) Can you apply for jobs,etc,etc? Of course you can. Will you get them? That's a question that demands the answer, "It depends..." There are a lot of factors that go into who gets what job, especially in academia. Certainly name recognition of your school means something as does its general reputation. If no one has ever heard of your school and knows nothing about it then it's hard to imagine that this would be a plus.
3) Us doctoral programs are more demanding and require more time...Says who? Show me the money (data).
4. "... does this make these programs inferior?"
You need to do more research, both on this forum (the archives) and in general related to the educational systems of the US and the other countries you mentioned. To some degree (pun intended you're trying to compare apples and oranges ... or maybe it's oranges and tangerines ... or maybe it's nectarines and plums
Anyway, I'm not sure that there's any really, really good reason to believe that there is a substantial difference here. This is not to say that there might not be a substantial difference in the PERCEPTION of these degree being superior/inferior. That's another issue altogether. Keep researching and keep asking questions.
Jack

 

Much has already been said. Nonetheless, I tend to agree with Mike that in some cases a degree from a well known or regarded foreign school may beat out a lesser or DL US school.

Bill has already pointed out that the British system does not necessarily mean less time, etc. University of Wales (second oldest university in GB if I remember correctly) has a mostly DL research based PhD. Doubt if that would be considered substandard.

Roy, you need to remember that the British/Australian/South African system is well established and has produced well regarded scholars.

I am also assuming you are meaning accredited/GAAP degrees. Because they all beat the heck out of an unaccredited degree or one accredited by an unrecognized accrediting agency.

North

 

Apples compared to Oranges...I Guess...

Many thanks to North, Bill, Jack, Dennis and Mike for your ideas and comments. Although I'm still a little confused....your comments and suggestions are beginning to hit home. I guess it depends on the university, whether it is accredited (GAAP and\or Royal Charter) and the recognition the institution receives abroad.
Okay....I now have something to work with.
Thanks again.
Roy

 

Will a foreign 'dissertation only' (I prefer that label since all Ph.D.s are by research ultimately) get you a job in the states? I guess it depends. Of course, it always depends.

The biggest potential problem that I can see, apart from general prejudice against DL, is lack of breadth. If you are applying for a teaching position that requires you to teach a particular set of classes, your prospective employer might want to know if you have any graduate level exposure to those subjects. If you are expected to teach history classes across much of the undergraduate syllabus but your dissertation-only research topic in history was 11'th century Byzantium, you may have a problem.

If you are applying to a biotech firm that wants a specialist in some arcane aspect of active transport across cell membranes, they will be looking closely at your dissertation research. In this case breadth may be of less concern.

I think that on the doctoral level where degrees are no longer fungible commodities, lots of employers don't care very much about the overall name-prestige of a school. If, as is often the case in research contexts, they want a specialist, they are going to be evaluating you in terms of that specialty. They will want to know the details of your dissertation, they will want to know who your dissertation advisors were and whose recommendations you are arriving with. They will likely have a problem and they will be hiring you to solve it for them.

For example, people routinely trash Nova Southeastern University. But Nova's Oceanography doctoral program is actually pretty well regarded.

http://www.nova.edu/ocean/

It hosts the congressionally funded National Coral Reef Institute and shares an impressive new facility with the Office of Naval Research's South Florida Ocean Measurement Center. My point being that if an employer is looking for a specialist in coral reef ecology or something, a Nova graduate might be preferable over many "top tier" graduates.

If you look for a strong program in your area of interest, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot what country it's in.

On that note, I'll leave off with another potential problem. This one applies to all distance doctoral programs, not just 'dissertation-only' ones. I'd really want to know what kind of remote support I'd be receiving. Would I be some kind of academic lone-wolf, working away in virtual isolation half a world away, only submitting my finished work at the end for a degree? If that's the case, it really doesn't matter how illustrious my department is, because I'm not really a part of it.

Or would I be able to take part, if only remotely, in ongoing work being done by my department and by my mentors? Would I really be a part of the intellectual and scholarly life whose reputation I would be trying to claim as my own?

 

Transcripts Can Be a Problem

I have a colleague who just began a position as an Assistant Professor at one the local state universities. She is from England and graduated with an M.Phil and a Ph.D. from a reputable English university. She had a real hard time explaining to the university that hired her why she had a doctorate but couldn't produce a transcript. Well, it was a research degree. One would think American academics would take the time to learn about this and understand it. Often they don't. After a couple months of going back and forth, they finally got it.

She's doing an outstanding job teaching organizational change. Maybe she'll manage to begin "change" with the institution for which she works.

 

I have heard several stories about people in the theological arena getting turned down for a job b/c the research PhD was gained without an MDiv to back it up.

Basically, you can't do first rate research without the breadth that is needed to make it significant. That should'nt count as an excuse to "skip" the coursework, because all of us who want a PhD to count and not be a waste of time need to insure, by our coursework, it is a real contribution. If you do the study on your own, that's great too, but there's nothing to check it against without another professional in the field's feedback. Why not do the coursework in that case?

Chris

 

Just some remarks from the other site of the view, and the continent:

in Europe, nearly everyone would prefer a Non-US research doctorate over a US coursework one (exception: Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, etc. doctorates).

Besides (at least in Germany, but I think in England it´s the same way, and even on the other side of the world, in New Zeeland - where I incidentally had a contact too it is that way), there is coursework included in research doctorates: statistical methods, SPSS, research introduction, etc., etc. - and very often also some advanced courses in "your" thesis topic, though it´s not always been transcripted at the end.


Furthermore, the British dissertation seems to be a lot broader in knowledge and length than the American one (from as far as I´ve read on the board plus: one of my professors in Germany has made his PhD in San Diego - he kind of has a hard time here against the German and British doctorates). Actually, in the European system (and the anglo-based one, too), the doctoral studies seems to be (in my mind) even harder than in the US. I don´t know anybody who makes his doctorate in less than 3-5 years FULL TIME. In the US, it seems to be able to make it in like 1-2 years coursework + 1-2 years thesis. So the thesis in Europe seems to be a lot more elaborated. Besides, in the European system, you regularly have a research component in your Bachelor´s, often even a small thesis (in Germany, about 60 pages), and then another one in your Master´s (about 80-100 pages), so that you already know how to write some major piece of work, whereas you could get an US Bachelor/Master combination just with coursework and without never writing anything more than a couple of pages and gain by this access to a PhD program...

Just my two cents about that topic...



Trigger

 

When thinking about the utility of a properly recognized (GAAP) foreign doctorate, I think that the design of the degree is much less important than the networking that is missing--networking which often leads to a job after graduation. (Unless, of course, that job occurs in the country in which one pursues one's degree.)

It's all about connections. If you're doing your doctorate to futher your current career, I would think a doctorate from a suitable school--regardless of its location--would be reasonably utile. But if you need that degree to get your career started, you're working in a vacuum to earn it in, say, Australia while you live and intend to work in the U.S. In that case, you'd be no better off than if you attended a school that caters to mid-career professionals in the U.S. (a la Walden, Fielding, Union, etc.). In either case, you end up with a legitimate degree and few connections to help you into your first job.

 

Not so sure about your comment on the US DL schools. In particular about Nova because NSU has so many residential programs that its graduates do well. In my short residency doctorate I have been offered positions at RA schools but I turn them down to keep my adjunct status because my industry job pays considerably more.

Now I guess it all comes down to what you mean by "good" schools. ...


John

 

Re: Re: Australian and UK PhDs versus U.S. PhDs

North,

A bit of trivia: I believe you are thinking specifically of the Univeristy of Wales, Lampeter (a.k.a., St. David's College), which is the oldest university-level institution in England and Wales after Oxford and Cambridge. The actual Univeristy of Wales confederation wasn't formed until several decades after St. David's was founded, and each of its constituent institutions have their own founding dates. St. David's also predates the next oldest institution, the Univ. of London, by about 14 years, I believe.

Cory Seibel