If you are or have been enrolled in Argosy University, particularly their doctoral program in education, could you please share your experiences, both favorable and unfavorable? I am sniffing the possibilities.
I've never attended, so I didn't vote, but it does get my vote as one of the worst school names ever. Argosy sounds like a skin disease. Bruce
I'd like to set up a poll asking the readers which DL doctoral school they like the best. Please help me determine which names to add to the poll list. Thus far, I have: Argosy University Capella University Union Institute Touro University Northcentral University (seeking RA status -- but not yet RA) Others? Suggestions please!!!
Argosy is not the worst name. The University of Action Learning is the worst. They could have been the Colorado University of International Management, but they had to select a name that sounds strange. What is it with distance ed schools? At least the Union Institute and University got it right. Sounds deserving of respect.
How will you assess the data gathered from forum readers offering their opinion as to whether they "like" a particular DL school? About what aspect of the school will you be trying to get thier opinion? I just curious as to what it is you are looking for with this type of question.
Saybrook and Fielding are both very good graduate schools. However, because they are both so narrowly focused on psychology (and related) degrees, you might not want to include them in this poll. It seems to me that it's a little like comparing apples to oranges. Of course, it depends on what the purpose of the poll is.
Um...Fielding is a bit more broad than Saybrook, offering doctorates in a few areas. Fielding is my personal favorite, despite my choosing Union over it.
Obviously, all polls that are conducted at degreeinfo.com are scientific and can be used to obtain empirical data. LOL It is just an anecdotal gage to get the general consensus and thoughts of people who visit this board. I'm more interested in a doctorate in education, due to its utility. I see some names that can be added to a poll: Fielding, Saybrook, Walden and Nova. Any others that should be included in a poll?
As everyone here knows, I'm not a big fan of for-profit institutions. Argosy (at least the business program) isn't the top DL institution on my list, nor are any of the similar for-profit schools. I've done some comparisons with Nova Southesatern (NSU) - an institution I know because I attended there. NSU isn't perfect by any stretch, but it is an interesting comparison point. Note that NSU is a non-profit, hence its motives may be a little different than Argosy. My concerns include: 1. Admissions standards - since Argosy and its peers (for profit and non-profit) are tuition driven - their incentive is to admit lots of folks. In my experience, some of these students are well qualified - but others are questionable. Since outgoing quality is, in large part, a function of incoming quality, there can be a lot of variation in the quality of graduates. They do have a 3.0 minimum GPA, but no GMAT requirement. There aren't any traditional PhD or DBA programs in business in the U.S. that admit students without a GMAT. For profits like Argosy, Walden and Capella do - I wonder why? NSU for one requires the GMAT and uses it in their admissions decisions. 2. Full-time faculty - A quick check of Caspar (caspar.nsf.gov) shows some interesting facts. Note that Argosy doesn't show in Caspar yet - their data is a few years old. The University of Sarasota (the predecessor of Argosy's business school) ran their programs through the late 90's with upwards to 2000 students and 9 to 26 faculty. Average faculty salaries during these years were $36k-40k. By comparison, Sarasota's cross state rival, Nova Southeastern (not counting their health professions division), employed 340-420 faculty with average salaries of $55-60k. During the comparison period, NSU enrolled 13,000 to 16,000. Do the math - Sarasota ran a student to faculty ratio of 80:1 while NSU ran 39 to 1. And NSU had undergraduates in their numbers while Saraota at the time did not! NSU faculty earned 50% more than Sarasota faculty. Why should students care how much faculty make? You tell me what caliber of faculty you can hire for $40k versus $60k???? 3. Library resources - for the latest reported years (1996) NSU outspent Sarasota $2,260,000 to $84,000 on library acquisitions. Sure NSU had more students (8 times as many), but they spent three time more per student on library resources. Since then NSU has built the largest library in Florida (in concert with Broward County). Again, why should students care? At the graduate level library resources are critical to the academic process. Incidently, I've looked at similar numbers for traditional institutions. NSU looks weak compared to say, Michigan State. However, the for profits look absolutely pitiful compared to NSU or a traditional school. Regards - Andy
Why ? Well, so far, more people have voted against the Argosy doctoral program than for it. Other then Andy Borchers, nobody has said why they are against it. Why?
Re: Why ? For a self-directed, adult learner who is looking to advance in his/her profession, and someone who needs a bit more structure than Fielding or Walden (and certainly Union), and someone who is sure a degree from Argosy will meet their his/her needs, it seems a reasonable choice. The U. of Sarasota has been in the DL business for a long time; they probably know what they're doing. (Library size and faculty salaries are very relevant, especially when comparing a DL school like Argosy to a campus-based school that also offers DL, like Nova.) (Andy finally agreed with my point that the not-for-profits spend that money somewhere. According to him, it's on faculty salaries. I'd have to agree.)
Re: Re: Why ? Rich - good to see that you agree on the value of libraries and faculty salaries. As for spending money - you're right - profits and non-profits both spend the money they bring in. I've never doubted it. Non-profits put it in faculty salaries and libraries, among other things. For profits sink a bunch (20% or more) on profit, taxes (10%) and marketing (15-20%). Where do you want to go to school? I'll go non-profit. Regards - Andy
Re: Re: Re: Why ? Oops. I meant that they AREN'T very relevant. (Especially libraries for a DL school. I mean, really!) I've earned degrees from Regents (public), CCAF (public), National (private, not-for-profit), and will very soon graduate from Union (private, not-for-profit). I've never attended a for-profit school, so I don't have a horse in this race. I've always contended that the not-for-profits could be wasteful; faculty salaries is just one example. The utter lack of business sense is another. And there is nothing to indicate that there is a better education to be had from a not-for-profit school compared to a comparable for-profit school. The for-profits are relative newcomers to the scene; we'll see how they fare in the long-run. But I'd rather have my tuition dollars spent in a business-like fashion, rather than on wasteful salaries and stupid research projects. If the not-for-profits actually represented a better value to the student, they'd charge less. But they don't. And that's with all of the tax advantages and ability to fundraise built in. No, the not-for-profits are fat and lazy because they don't operate in a competitive environment. But that is changing rapidly.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why ? Yes - I mean library support really is important. Doctoral students that are working on dissertations need good library support. My dissertation had an extensive bibliography - I had to find the information somewhere. Access to library resources (books, articles and most importantly librarians!) is critical. For students located in major metro areas - they may find what they need at area schools. For folks in smaller cities and town, library services are essential. To this day I make extensive use of DL library support both from NSU and the schools I teach at. Yes - non-profits can be wasteful - but are you arguing that faculty salaries are a "waste"? I've yet to see a profession where top performers go for low wages. Rich - would you like to manage a MLB team with the lowest salary level? You certainly wouldn't get the best talent. While some faculty are driven by factors other than money, faculty salaries are a very relevant factor. U.S. News in their ranking list, for example considers, faculty salaries in their work. Low salary levels keep colleges from hiring high quality faculty. As for better education - I've asked before and no one has an answer: Show me one for-profit school that shows on a national ranking list (such as U.S. News). Why not? For profits certainly aren't perceived to be of the caliber of non-profits. The worlds finest universities - choose your ranking list - are all non-profit. For profits aren't on the radar screen. And the quality of the for-profits that I see won't change this situation. But when a Business like fashion means that UoP spends less than 50% on education - is that in the students' interest? Or is it in the shareholders' interests? As for stupid research - everyone seems to pick up on news reports that focus on some obscure piece of research that sounds stupid. But surely Rich you recognize the fundamental role of universities in advancing knowledge. Where would our society be without the research output of universities during the last 100 years? Of course for-profits don't work on advancing knowledge - they seek to make a buck awarding degrees. For profits and non-profits are driven by competitive factors when it comes to setting tuition levels. The difference is where the money goes. For profits put a lot of their money into profit, taxes and marketing. Non-profits spend more on faculty, libraries, students services and the like. Where do you want your tuition dollars to go? The value I see in non-profits isn't in lower tuition, it is in improved education. As for "Fat and lazy" non-profits - those days are gone. Economic pressures are being felt among non-profits and competitive pressures are real. The key differeence is that non-profits don't have to satisfy shareholders, they serve students, employers and society as a whole. Regards - Andy
Re: Why ? I am a former Nova Southeastern University graduate, which is another GREAT school, but very expensive compared to Argosy. The tuition cost at Argosy’s Doctoral programs runs at about $480.00 per credit hour. Argosy is a GREAT school on the basis of my personal experience. The professors and the administrative support staff are very supportive. I have completed (7) seven classes at Argosy and I have been very impressed with the student population. In my last intersession that I attended during the month of October ’02, the following were the students’ profiles that were attending class with me, (3) three Lt. Col (Army), (2) two V.P’s (Federal Express/UPS), (4) four college professors (Ole’ Miss/University of South Florida), etc You cannot solely base your decision on baseless statements shared with you on this forum. Prior to attending Argosy, I went to their orientation and got in touch with former graduates that had, but positive things to say about the school. Argosy University has major plans to open (50) fifty additional campuses nationwide within the next (10) ten years. Their Psy.D. programs are APA accredited and they even have an ABA accredited law school. Last time I checked, Argosy University has a little over 6 thousand students attending their campuses nationwide of which the Sarasota Campus accounts for about 2 thousand of their total student population. Overall, I do/still think that I made the right decision by attending Argosy University on the basis of rigor and flexibility of class offerings. If you are near the Sarasota Campus, I do recommend that you visit their campus and attend one of their orientations and make an objective decision based on your career objectives. As far as the school’s name, Argosy is going places and will be a household name in years to come. Good Luck!!
Tom, Thanks for the input. Since you are currently enrolled, you anecdotal experience is very informative. To be candid, I am probably going to enroll in the Argosy doctoral program in late '03 or in '04 because they have a campus in my city (which is a big plus) and because they are RA. Enrollment will be contingent upon the monthly and the total cost of the program (I'll have to see if I can afford it). Thanks again for your input.
