Questions from a newbie, help appreciated (long)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Anthony Ciolli, Dec 29, 2002.

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  1. Anthony Ciolli

    Anthony Ciolli New Member

    Hi everyone,

    I've been reading this forum for the past couple of days and having caught myself up on the past few months of discussion I have to say that this has definitely been a great resource, so good that I thought I'd ask for some advice.

    I'm currently an undergrad student at Cornell University, pursuing a B.S. in industrial and labor relations. If all goes according to plan, I should be graduating 2 years early in the summer of 2003. I was able to do this because I took an accelerated number of credits at my previous institution, getting 84 credits last year (with 60 transferring to Cornell) and I am continuing accelerated studies at Cornell. Besides the obvious financial savings of graduating early, I took large courseloads because I truly enjoy learning and want to personally enrich myself.

    Here is my dilemma: Because I didn't anticipate being able to graduate this academic year, I did not take the LSAT (my main goal is to go to a top law school) nor did I take the GRE or the GMAT. I had expected to stay 2 years in Cornell because 2 required coures are only offered in the spring semester, the first of which is a prerequisite for the second, making it impossible to take them concurrently. However, through Penn State's distance learning program I am able to take the equivalent of the first required course during the winter, and then take the second required course this Spring (with a couple of remaining degree requirements wrapped up in the summer). Because of the lack of LSAT/GRE/GMAT scores, and since most application deadlines would have already passed by the time I get to take those tests, my options for what to do during the next academic year are limited.

    I don't want to take off or spend a year working, and would rather use my extra 2 years to at least get a masters degree. Right now I'm considering the Harvard Extension School's Master of Liberal Arts program since it's a masters degree from Harvard that I can finish in about a year's time that is open admissions, low tuition, and doesn't require the GRE or any other test. However after reading some of the negative posts on this board about general liberal arts degrees (mostly regarding bachelors of liberal arts degrees, but the same can probably be said about masters of liberal arts degrees as well) I get the feeling that the ALM degree wouldn't help much in terms of making a law school application look good. So, I was considering obtaining additional bachelor degrees and/or masters degrees through distance learning as well.

    My questions:

    1) How would law schools look upon an applicant who has multiple bachelors/masters degrees, graduated from these degree programs earlier than expected, and has achieved good grades in all the programs? Would such an applicant be looked upon more favorably than a candidate with just a bachelors degree, or would an applicant like this be not viewed as favorably (perhaps because the admissions committee thinks the candidate is "confused" or a "degree collector")?

    2) Similarly, how would future employers view an applicant whose resume contains a long list of multiple bachelors/masters degrees? I know that there is a threat of being labelled "overqualified" for a job because of such credentials, but the discussions here focused on applicants with doctorates. At what point do you think additional bachelors/masters degrees would do me more harm than good?

    3) How are multiple degrees from different institutions viewed by the academic community? I've read here that when applying for academic jobs the candidate who has a longer list of degrees will tend to get the edge. However some (but not all) of the faculty members at Cornell and at my previous institution (CUNY Queens College) that I have spoken to about this have dismissed this and think there's no point in getting, for example, multiple bachelors degrees.

    Just to make it clear, I have spoken to people from student services, career services, faculty members, etc. at Cornell but have gotten contradicting messages. For example, one representative would encourage me to go for multiple degrees, saying that I have everything to gain from it and nothing to lose, while another will give me a more pessimistic view. Basically at this point I want to get as many opinions on this as possible, especially from this community since such good information has already been posted here. I enjoy learning and am having a great experience with the Penn State dl course I'm in now, and would love to enter degree programs from legitimate RA institutions. However, I don't want to inadvertently destroy my chances at law school or my chances at landing a high-paying competitive job because I accumulated too many degrees.

    Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions, I'll really appreciate it!
     
  2. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    The answer to your questions is easy. It depends. :)

    Now for my opinion on the choices you have mentioned and a suggestion about what you haven't.

    Keeping in mind that there is no defined pre law curriculum, I think the MLS might be the ideal masters degree. You would have the opportunity of more flexibility in your program allowing you to choose courses that would broaden your knowledge, giving you a likely edge over other applicants.
    Same idea to a lesser degree concerning a second bachelors degree.
    Another option might be to check out some of the foreign, specialized, low cost master degrees at Lawrie Miller's site. If you don't need to fulfill any job requirements, but instead want to differentiate yourself and stay sharp until you can take the LSAT, there are quite a few very interesting programs of study. Also, because of the low cost, you may not even have to go deeper into debt (until you start law school, that is).
    Regardless of what you choose, I can't see how it can hurt you in your application. You can stress your broad experience with different material, different learning formats, and different countries higher educational systems (if you go the foreign MA route). In a word, you will be diverse. Isn't that the number one buzzword today in higher ed admissions?

    Good luck,
    Tony
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Hi Anthony,

    You ask many good questions. Unfortunately, I don't have the good answers to match. The problem is that your questions don't really have any black and white answers. In some situations multiple Bachelor's degrees might help. I can't imagine that it could ever really hurt to have a couple of Bachelor's degrees nor do I believe that it would likely help much.

    However, I can't resist an attempt to answer your questions. You seem to be a person with clear goals in your mind. You also seem to be very thoughtful and intelligent. I have complete faith that whatever you decide to do will be the right choice for you.

    Good luck!
     
  4. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    As I understand it, people from all sorts of backgrounds and with diverse academic credentials get into law schools. It's not clear to me that the Masters degree from Harvard would be harmful to your chances and it might give you the chance to pick up another recommendation letter. Personally, if I were in your situation, I'd look for something more focused like a Masters in Political Science, Economics, History, etc. as they might be seen as being more complementary to a law degree. That's just my opinion. It may not be worth a lot as I've never applied to law school. In any case, good luck,
    Jack
     
  5. Orson

    Orson New Member

    Hello, Anthony...

    As said above, you do ask good questions--and yes--it does depend.

    My sense of the Harvard MLA (or, I think, ALM--it's Harvard, it's Latin), is that it is flexible but also permits specialization, including course contact with some grad school profs. For instance, biology or government--it's possible to do the equivalent of the most of many different master's in the program. And any such complementary specialization will be viewed favorably by grad committees. In law or business, a contrasting specialization(compared to your first degree), is often viewed even more favorably--it shows flexibility and a capacity to learn divergent material. Law is a profession where cases can come at you from many different directions and therefore liberal education is quite valuable. Old learning becomes obsolete quite rapidly in the swift currents of changing legal and regulatory regimes.

    Finally, in view of a recent NYTimes education week article (this December), second BAs (or even triple m ajors) are becoming too jejune to even hope to stand out from the crowd with this alone.

    Do you have any idea what you would do in your thesis? (This is the biggest obstacle for most students.) I did download the ALMs handbook on the thesis--it' very concise, helpfully directive, and appropriate to those not even in this particular program!

    --Orson
     
  6. Steve King

    Steve King Member

    While every law school claims to evaluate the "whole applicant," most only look at two things: your undergraduate GPA and your LSAT score. This is true for most law schools for a couple of reasons; not the least of which is that these two numbers are used to judge how good a law school is. How many rankings and admissions guides show, and use, the preceeding class' average undergrad GPA and LSAT score? All of them! Law schools know this, which is why they matter so much to them.

    This is why a good masters degree may not help a law school candidate with poor LSATs or a low undergrad GPA get into law school. To answer your first question, with regard to law schools, it doesn't really matter.
     
  7. Hille

    Hille Active Member

    Hello, When I read your post I was amazed at your academic focus. I am wondering if the dl masters from a foreign school with prestige would get you where you want to be. I am not sure what school has the most prestige but am sure others will comment. Good Luck with your quest. Hille
     
  8. Anthony Ciolli

    Anthony Ciolli New Member

    Thank you very much for all the great comments/suggestions, I really appreciate it! It was a pleasant surprise to see so many replies in such a short period of time.

    Some followup questions/comments:

    I got the same impression after reading that article and some others off of LexisNexis a couple of weeks ago. The faculty I've seen quoted in those type of articles also don't seem to like the idea that much and think those students would be better off getting a masters degree instead of doing 2+ majors. That's why I got the idea to try to get myself stand out from the crowd in 3 different ways:

    1) early graduation (but with extracurriculars so that they don't get the impression that I locked myself in a room and studied 24/7)
    2) multiple bachelors degree
    3) masters degree

    I thought that by doing all 3 of those (while still being in the "traditional" age group), I'd be able to cover all the bases and be able to actually stand out without getting a negative reaction.

    I have an idea for a possible thesis for a masters in economics or a masters in labor relations, but not sure about an ALM thesis. I'm still looking into my options and looking into the ALM program in particular (as I said before, it wasn't until a very short time ago that I found out I could graduate this year, so I hadn't thought much about graduate school or writing a thesis). Thanks for suggesting the ALM handbook, I'll download it now and take a look at it.

    Right now though I must say that the thesis is what worries me the most. If I decide to go through with Harvard's ALM and also attempt a DL masters I was considering the possibility of a DL masters that does not require a thesis. Is there a negative stigma attached to getting a masters from a program that does not require a thesis? Likewise, would a transcript from such a program reflect that the degree was earned without a thesis?

    How will my undergraduate GPA be evaluated if I have transcripts from multiple institutions that calculate their GPA differently? Cornell, Queens College, and Penn State all calculate GPAs differently and if I get another bachelors or two through distance learning I'm sure those institutions will have their own way of calculating it as well.

    I was considering that option as well. The question of prestige brings about another concern of mine that I forgot to mention in my first post. Would a bachelors from Excelsior or one of the similar institutions be looked down upon by an admissions officer from a competitive law school, even if I also have my bachelors from Cornell with a high GPA? I realize that lots of people with Excelsior degrees go on to good programs but the law schools I'm hoping for are the hardest to get into (Harvard, Yale, etc.). Likewise would a masters from a middle-of-the-road institution reflect badly on me? Is there also a negative stigma attached to the Harvard ALM because it's open admissions and from the extension school? As you can see I'm concerned about not being looked down upon or leaving a negative impression because of where/how I got my degrees.
     
  9. Han

    Han New Member

    quote:
    "How will my undergraduate GPA be evaluated if I have transcripts from multiple institutions that calculate their GPA differently? Cornell, Queens College, and Penn State all calculate GPAs differently and if I get another bachelors or two through distance learning I'm sure those institutions will have their own way of calculating it as well. "

    I had this issue at the University of the Pacific - I have attended 5 Community coleges, and 3 Universities (moved around alot, but ALWAYS stayed in school).

    The answer: If the school you are submitting a transcript for does not use a four point scale (or whatever scale the university you are applying for uses), they must show the scale, weights, credits per hour, etc in some offical form from the schoo. Most schools already do this on official transripts, but if they don't, you can pull it out of the official catalog, and send it to the school.

    I had one of the Community Colleges not give the conversion, and I had to send it on, and IT WILL HOLD UP YOUR APPLICATION. When you cal for status on your application, you can ask if the conversions have been received.

    UOP sent me a "Personal report", which showed their calculations, and my GPA, with LSAT, their formula.

    Good Luck.
     
  10. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    If you want to attend the Harvard Extension ALM program, you're going to have to actually spend some time in Cambridge (it's not possible to do the program 100% non-residentially).

    Also, I'm not sure if it means anything, but I know many people who have attended Harvard Extension, but I only know one (our own Jack Tracey) who has actually graduated.


    Bruce
     
  11. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Re: Re: Questions from a newbie, help appreciated (long)

    I graduated with my ALB in 1986. This was before Harvard offered any courses through DL. I've never bothered to go back and check but I'm pretty sure that Bruce is correct. You can NOT get your degree entirely through DL. Of course, an enterprising young man like Anthony might not mind moving to Cambridge for a while. It's got some good little jazz clubs and a few nice restaurants that I grew fond of "back in the day." As to the "prestige" question...I've grown tired of arguing this issue with people whose only knowledge on the subject comes from surfing the schools web site. I can only say what I've said before, that I was accepted into all six of the grad school programs to which I applied, including the Harvard School of Education. So, for my money that ALB had all the prestige that I required. Would it help you get into a top-notch law school? I don't know. As I said in my earlier post, I don't think it will hurt.
    ***Special Commendation to Orson for using the word "jejune" in a degreeinfo posting.
    *:D*:D*:D Hey Bruce! How 'bout those Pats today?
    Jack
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2002
  12. Gary Rients

    Gary Rients New Member

    When you apply to grad schools the admissions personnel will calculate your GPA using their own methodology, based upon the individual grades that you received in each of your courses. So, it doesn't really matter how your GPA is calculated by the institution from which the courses were taken. For instance, if you attended a school that has a policy of "forgiving" a low grade if a course is retaken, that doesn't mean that a grad school will necessarily treat it this way when calculating your GPA. It's my understanding that the overall GPA printed on your transcript is pretty much ignored by most, if not all, admissions offices, since they will recalculate it anyway.

    All I can offer is an unqualified opinion, but I can't imagine that obtaining an ALM from HES could possibly hurt your application to any law school. You'll already have a recent undergraduate degree with a high GPA from a prestigious school, so I don't see how differentiating yourself from the crowd could be disadvantageous. It may also give you the chance to pick up recommendations from Harvard faculty, which ought to be an advantage when applying to Harvard Law. Regardless, it is my understanding that your score on the LSAT will be a big factor, as mentioned by others. I've ever applied to law school, but I did look into it at one time.

    I'd like to pass on a summary of some advice that I received from an attorney friend of mine: Make absolutely certain that you want to practice law before spending the time and money to get your JD. He was 3rd in his class at Berkeley's school of law, and he related to me that he and many of his classmates discovered that, while they enjoyed studying law, they did not enjoy practicing it, and either ended up either changing professions or just being unhappy with their careers. You may be one of the people who enjoys it, but just bear that in mind.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2002
  13. Ben M

    Ben M New Member

    Anthony wrote:

    I'd like to pass on a summary of some advice that I received from an attorney friend of mine: Make absolutely certain that you want to practice law before spending the time and money to get your JD. He was 3rd in his class at Berkeley's school of law, and he related to me that he and many of his classmates discovered that, while they enjoyed studying law, they did not enjoy practicing it, and either ended up either changing professions or just being unhappy with their careers. You may be one of the people who enjoys it, but just bear that in mind.>>

    I agree with this advice as well and would like throw in my cent and a half.

    There are so many joint degree programs with the JD, that it would only take a semester or two to receive dual degrees in a number of programs. The JD and the MBA both have numerous programs along these lines.

    Second bit of unsolicited advice, would it be better to consider working in a law firm for this year off in the specialization that interests you (if there is one) to get a feel for the environment?

    Ben
     
  14. Orson

    Orson New Member

    More Q & A

    Gary Rients is very correct to suggest one ought to know--or else be finding out early by clerking--if the law is for you or not! Most people with law degrees DON'T actually practice, however the number saying that they use their legal training in business or other fields is quite high (about two-thirds, if memory serves me)--so to say it could be a waste of time is not correct either.

    Anthony writes:
    "...I was considering the possibility of a DL masters that does not require a thesis. Is there a negative stigma attached to getting a masters from a program that does not require a thesis? Likewise, would a transcript from such a program reflect that the degree was earned without a thesis?"

    To the last question first: yes, most transcripts will reflect thesis/dissertation work. However in the real of Liberal Arts Masters, this is often a perfuntory requirement, composed of, say, three credits toward "Project" that may simply be a lengthy re-written paper, perhaps drafted in another course. (I don't have it front of me just now, but I believe Wash U St. Louis does it like this...But, again, it varies with the institution, and thus generalizations can only be rough. )

    To your second question: is there a negative stigma attached to a non-thesis Masters? It depends.

    If one seeks a Ph.D., a thesis masters is almost ALWAYS preferred
    (exception: not if you're alreasy in that same department in the same school!--or at least that's the typical exception)--reason? It shows that one can think, write, and organize a lengthy intellectual product of significance (even if outsiders are dubious of the last claim).

    And if you hope to teach law after your law degree (and you state you want Harvard and Yale), then it behooves you to stick with the Big 5 law schools (Yale, Harvard, COlumbia, Chicago, Cornell, if I recollect rightly), because something like 90% of tenured law faculty did their JDs from this lot. Finally, a thesis is important only if displaying creative, original research or problem-solving is valued by the admissions committee. Best approach? ASK them! (In other words, were you seeking Temple University Law, then no--doing a thesis would not matter. Instead, it may well better impress admissions people that you published a research article, or even popular non-scholarly piece(s). This shows engagement with the real world, as opposed to "idle" student sscholarship.)


    Finally,
    "How would law schools look upon an applicant who has multiple bachelors/masters degrees, graduated from these degree programs earlier than expected, and has achieved good grades in all the programs? Would such an applicant be looked upon more favorably than a candidate with just a bachelors degree, or would an applicant like this be not viewed as favorably (perhaps because the admissions committee thinks the candidate is "confused" or a "degree collector")?


    I think if your personal statement ties things together convincingly and soundly why you did this, then , no--it will not hurt you! If one can't explain this burst of activity, then, yes! one would look like "a degree collector," a phony. However, if an MS in environmental science (or environmental managment) serves the hope to specailize in environmental law at their law school (e.g., naming Duke one Law's Env Law prof's paper you have read...etc), and you concisely and compelingly convey this rational, then it can only help your case for admission at the most compeetitve schools.

    In short, the admissions game is very much a self-marketing game, and you are setting up a brand, and you must sell your brand to the committee with at least the implied expectation : "You'll never regret it (admitting me)!"

    I'm sure there are othe guidebooks that explain admissions process quite explicitly as marketing. "Scaling the Ivy Wall in the '90s" by Howard Greene, for instance, is most concerned with admission to professional school (MBA, Med and Law), and gives lots of tips about this process. He even goes so far as to suggest that when highly competitive grad schools seek nationally representative students bodies, you can stand out by moving to (and thus making your app come from) Alaska, Wyoming, or Alabama. But he wrote this in the early 90s--I don't know if this strategy has been sustained as an effective one since!

    And of special concern in your case (i.e., a hot-shot student collecting degrees), it's important to address the maturity issue--i.e., how together is this guy, really?! Can we count on him to stick to it for three years?--head on. So--with your situation, it's important to have a strategy for answering this--perhaps without even stating that "this issue must be on your minds?...Here's my answer..." (Older student are known to be more focused and committed to finishing--younger students always stand in some suspicion that they won't for many reasons! Thus if you can kill the qestion without even naming it, you're slick!)

    --Orson
    PS Thanks for noticing, Jack--the other synonyms for "jejune"struck me like cliches!--too tired to even deseve such banality typed.
     
  15. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    I wish I had problems like worrying whether a masters degree from Harvard would negatively affect my future academic career.

    It's a masters! It's Harvard!

    As my 11 year old daughter so eloquently phrases it.

    Duh!
     
  16. krazymack

    krazymack New Member

    Similar Aspirations to me.

    Anthony you have very similar aspirations to the goals that I'd like to attain. I wish to become a lawyer one day as well. I just graduated with a degree in Computer Science this semester from a small school in Nyack, New York.

    The major difference between you and me is that you will graduate from an ivy league institution, Cornell. My college isn't as reputable.

    I think you would look really impressive to law school admissions officers with the multiple degrees in addition to your ivy league background. I feel that it is proof that you can handle academic rigor and structure in Law School after the pursuit of the bachelors & masters degrees.

    I say obtain whatever degree you desire, "for your jollies," like my friend Steve Levicoff states. As long as you have an interests in the areas that you will obtain your degrees, I don't see a problem with going for it.

    I'm looking to complete a second Bachelors from Excelsior in Psychology this semester -- (following Lawrie's plan), maybe a biblical studies bachelors degree too, and pursue graduate school in the fall: online or at a New York City area college like Columbia, Pratt Institute or NYU.

    I'm using my graduate background for preparation into Law School because my undergraduate GPA kind of suffered with respect to the technical nature of my major. I would like to major in a liberal arts background in order to get the education that I never received. I would like to get into any Law School hopefully with some scholarship offers as well.

    So we have striking similarities! :D I wish you the best of luck Anthony, you sound like a very aspiring and intelligient young person and future lawyer.

    Go Queens College in Flushing, I'm from Brooklyn!!! :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2002
  17. Anthony Ciolli

    Anthony Ciolli New Member

    Once again thanks for all the great comments! I can't stress enough how much help everyone's posts have been.

    Biggest problem with the joint degree programs, especially at the competitive schools, is that they seem very hard to get into. For example if you want to get into a Harvard joint JD/MBA program you need to be independently accepted by both the Law School AND the Business School. Getting into just one program seems like a monumental task from my perspective, let alone getting into both...

    Speaking of which, I'm getting rather confused again because in my other thread I'm getting the impression that 3 or more bachelors degrees is something frowned upon in academia, but in this thread I'm getting the impression that the number of bachelors degrees you have won't really affect you one way or the other. Anyone else want to offer advice on this subject? I was rather enthusiastic about getting a few degrees through Excelsior/COSC/TESC but as I said before I don't want to make myself look stupid or silly in the process.
     
  18. Orson

    Orson New Member

    A ditto that from a 31 year old woman's personals ad:
    "Most humbling moment:
    Learning that I can't fly...Actually, realizing that after 3 years of law school and 6 years of practice, I hate being a lawyer."

    "Best (or worst) lie I've ever told:
    Yes sir! I'd love to be a partner at your law firm!"
    See http://personals.salon.com/personals/preview_ad.asp?Latitude=40.0209&Longitude=105.2967&FD=Dec+18+2002+11:18:44:000PM&DIST=50&ZIP=80302&TP=S&SOL=L&CT=150&SRID=0&PRID=6913721

    --Orson
     
  19. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    I worked with several people who earned JD degrees in the 70s who never considered a law career but worked in contracts and purchasing for a large aerospace company (today they probably would have pursued an MBA).
     

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