I realize that Saratoga and its "Bar-link program" has been discussed a number of times on these boards, but I'm not quite sure it has been fully examined. The scenario most often discussed is this: take the Bar-track DL JD at Saratoga, pass the Baby Bar, pass the CA Bar, get admitted into and complete a LLM at an ABA school, and then take the Bar exam in states other than California for which the LLM is enough. My understanding, however, of the Saratoga situation is this. They are actually suggesting that you completely forget about California. You take their non Bar-track (you can finish this in two years) and before you are actually awarded the JD, you are admitted into and complete a LLM at one of the ABA schools they have contracted with. After completion, you then "go back" to Saratoga and "finish up" the JD. So, and this is key, you are actually getting the LLM before the JD. And, in this model, there is no Baby Bar. Many states require that, to sit for their Bar exam, your "first professional law degree" must come from an ABA school. And, in the case as illustrated above, indeed your "first professional law degree" would have come from an ABA school. Some states specifically state that the JD must come from an ABA school; many others simply say "first professional law degree." Does anyone have any intelligent insight here (other than simply bashing DL programs; please post that elsewhere)?
Sounds like gibberish to me. When they say "First" law degree, they mean the JD. You can bet your sweet life that you will never sit for the bar in NY, FL, MA, MI, etc. etc....... Ask them to provide proof that this will, in fact, permit you to sit for the bar. Then, contact the bar examiners in that state and verify it again. Wes
Won't fly in Alabama --- the Bar specifically says the JD must come from an ABA approved school or from a school recognized by the Alabama Supreme Court (Jones, Bham School of Law, and Miles College). Sounds like it would preclude having to take the Baby Bar, but that is all. Maybe David Boyd will wade in on this --- he should have insight since he is in competition with Saratoga. A little unusual for an evangelical school to be looking for ways to circumvent the rules!!!!!!
Thanks, Wes and Howard. Wes: I am yet to check with the Bar Examiners of all 50 states, but I can tell you that MI will indeed admit a student with an LLM (regardless of where the JD was completed). Please note the following Bar Admission Rules in MI: "... A law school approved by the American Bar Association is reputable and qualified. Other schools may ask the Board to approve the school as reputable and qualified. If the applicant has obtained an LLM degree from an approved law school, the applicant's JD or LLB need not be from an approved law school." I'll report back if I learn of other states which would allow this. Howard: Just to be clear, Saratoga is not the evangelical school; it is Oak Brook. Yes, I hope David Boyd chimes in here.
Also previously discussed is the fact that few ABA schools offer an LL.M. via DL. In fact, the only one that comes to mind is STU. In any event, with this scenario, you could easily spend much more for your "ABA" LL.M. than your Saratoga J.D. and that LL.M. will, more likely than not, require residency. I noticed Saratoga claimed graduates "who become members of the California Bar are eligible to apply for admission to practice before United States Federal Courts". That's not entirely accurate as a number of them require attorneys to be licensed in the state in which the court sits. As for specific states, you might try ME, OH, NY, and MI, for starters. I believe the first three have the "24 credit ABA law school" requirement. I wouldn't even bother with states like GA or NJ nor, as Wes and Howard pointed out, FL, AL, or MA.
Does this mean that someone taking the LLM via DL from a UK university listed in Laurie Millers 'BA in 4 Weeks site' can actually sit the Bar in MI? Were they specific on the type of LLM and presumably if someone with the LLM tooka pre-Bar course might in fact pass the Bar and with no JD requirement, is it possible? Was there also a residency requirement for the Bar in MI or other states that is required to allow LLM grads to sit the Bar? J.R(ic)
MASTER OF BUSINESS LAWS [ MBL ] A DL Masters degree open to everybody. http://www.nls.ac.in/deduc/mbl_main.htm The National Law School of India University at Bangalore was established under the National Law School of India Act (Karnataka Act 22 of 1986). The Act was notified in the official Gazette August 29, 1987. The Act is the basic governing document for the University and all persons associated with it. A large number of retired Judges of the Supreme Court and High Courts as well as Senior Advocates have offered to assist the NLSIU in its teaching and research programmes making education at NLSIU a rare and exciting experience to the student body.
Homer: Good point on the cost. The LLM at STU is quite expensive. The savings here would be not so much in terms of direct-costs, but rather time. If one could finish the JD program at Saratoga in two years and then the STU program in one, one would have saved a year in the typical four-year process. This route would also allow one to bypass the Baby Bar, which has its advantages. As you mentioned, STU is the only DL ABA LLM I am aware of. The fellow at Saratoga told me that there are "a few" but, as we all know, you do not get his magic list until you sign up. John: I do not believe this would work (at least not in MI) as the requirement is for an LLM at an ABA-accredited school. If you do possess such an LLM, you are permitted to sit for the Bar even if your JD was from a non ABA school. I have also confirmed that NC will also allow you to sit for their Bar with an ABA LLM, non ABA JD.
Matty, it was a general question posted for information and feedback as to whether there was a loop hole in the Bar examination system somewhere in one of the US states. Being Canadian it sounds weird to me that an acceptable and accredited LLM from a UK university simply means that a non Law degree holder (LLB/JD), could in fact have this person (like this Canuck) come over the boarder and sit the Bar exam..possible dont you think? Yes it is possible to enter the LLM in the UK without the LLB. J.R(ic)
John, States cannot discriminate against non-residents. Imposing residency requirements for admission to the bar violates the Privileges and Immunities Clause. As Matty stated, it doesn't appear as if a UK LL.M. will work. The relevant rule (Rule 2) for MI is reproduced below: "(B) Before taking the examination, an applicant must obtain a JD, LLB, or LLM degree from a reputable and qualified law school that (1) is incorporated in the United States, its territories, or the District of Columbia; and (2) requires for graduation 3 school years of study for full-time students, and 4 school years of study for part-time or night students. A school year must be at least 30 weeks. A law school approved by the American Bar Association is reputable and qualified. Other schools may ask the Board to approve the school as reputable and qualified. If the applicant has obtained an LLM degree from an approved law school, the applicant's JD or LLB need not be from an approved law school."
With respect to bar admission in MI, according to the Rules, an ABA approved school is conclusively presumed to be reputable and qualified. However, it appears as if other schools can request that the Board make such a finding with regard to non ABA approved schools. Does anyone know whether one (or more) of the non ABA approved schools in CA have made such a request?
Clause 2 would exclude most LLM programs, wouldn't it? Matty seems to be suggesting spending two years on a non-ABA, non-bar JD and one year on an LLM, for a total of three. But the wording of the MI requirement seems to suggest that the qualifying degree from a "reputable and qualified law school" must be a three year degree, whether it is a JD. LLB or an LLM.
Bill: This is a very good point. I have a note into the Bar Examiners in Michigan for clarification. I will report back when I hear from them.
Do we know if anyone has actually done, or is currently doing, the Saratoga-to-LL.M. thing? And is Saratoga still refusing to disclose the name(s) ot the school(s) with which they have the LL.M. Eventually, I think, it must become known. (I proposed to them once that they tell me, in confidence (I wouldn't tell anyone without their permission), so that I could confirm that it really could work, and would print that fact. No response. Finally, my understanding has been that something very comparable is being offered through British-American University, which actually claims that they invented this strategy.
Saratoga has been promoting this strategy for a number of years. I recommend you ask them for the name of any person who was successful in this approach. (I assume they would be proud to be the first.) Secondly, assuming Saratoga won’t name the LLM programs they believe will admit their graduates, why don’t you write the state bars of any states you wish to be admitted and ask for a formal ruling. Third, you could write the admissions office of all ABA schools that offer LLM programs and ask them about this strategy. I’d be surprised if the number of programs exceeds 100. Be very specific in laying out the plan. Why would you want to go to extremes to avoid the Baby Bar? If you couldn’t pass the Baby Bar, what makes you think you could pass the General Bar Examination? I know the Baby Bar is a nuisance but it does serve a good purpose. The entire strategy depends upon admission to and graduation from an LLM program offered by an ABA school. While the door to LLM programs has been opened to some degree by the ABA/Justice Department consent decree, admission to LLM programs cannot be guaranteed for even ABA JD graduates, much less graduates from non-ABA schools. You should remember that in relation to JD programs, LLM programs are very small. I would guess that less than 1% of attorneys hold an LLM. Even assuming you could be admitted to a qualifying LLM program, most LLM programs are very challenging. To my knowledge, Taft has had four graduates earn LLM degrees from ABA schools. Most LLM programs offered to US residents are in taxation. If you’re not a CPA or don’t have an accounting background, you’ll find such a program very difficult. Should the strategy actually work, how long do you think it will be before the ABA and the state bars change the rules? How long could ABA law schools survive if it became common knowledge a JD was not required to take the bar? Lastly, where will you be if the strategy doesn’t work? Without satisfying the California rules, you will be left with no credit toward meeting the educational requirements for the California Bar Examination. Depending upon your specific circumstances, I believe the are schools other than ours (Taft) that might fit your needs. Saratoga is not one of them.
Quite true. Then one has to deal with the thesis that a lot of schools seem to toss in as a requirement. The STU LL.M. in Int'l Tax, for example, requires (other than a huge wad of cash) a paper suitable for publication in one of the major tax journals (the stated =minimum= number of footnotes is 100). With rather intimate knowledge of how much work such an undertaking involves, I'd much rather deal with the Baby Bar.
