Trying to Decide Between Universities - Round 2

RE: http://www.degreeinfo.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6334

Hello everyone.

I now have offical offer letters from Liverpool John Moore U, and U of Bradford in UK and, they have assigned Advisors to me. I will be communicating with the advisors to learn more about them and their previous/existing research. UNISA is still trying to find me a suitable advisor. However, I am STILL undecided which to choose.

When I posted the original message several weeks ago, I received a wealth of information... and thank you. I know, I know, I know, maybe I am asking/hoping for others to make up my mind... but I don't know what to do. A couple of professors at U of Waterloo told me "the university did not matter, the research quality + references mattered."

UK will cost me around 9-10K per year, UNISA will cost me 1.5K. UNISA will enroll me directly to their PhD program, UK will enroll me into MPhil for a year, and then to PhD program if I qualify. No, I am not looking for an easier way in. UK will want me to travel to UK once a year which I don't really mind. UNISA rarely asks anyone to travel there. UK is so prompt in replying msgs, UNISA is terrible. I can find UK U info easily, UNISA's web site is a challenge.

So, any more comments?

And, once again thank you all in advance. You offer some great advise in this forum and I am thankful.

J.

 

Unisa's bureaucracy is famously difficult. But once you are in a program you would communicate with your advisor frequently and with the administration very infrequently.

In your situation, I would weigh heavily the choice of advisor. Once you have a list of potential advisors, do a literature search. Contact former students (who should be first authors of papers) and get opinions on the advisor. For computer science, you may need to look at conference proceedings as well as journal articles, since it appears (to me, an outsider) that computer science uses conference proceedings as a means of publication to a greater extent than biological and chemical sciences (my area of expertise).

 

Javad, good to hear that you have offers from various places. Now it's down to the time and money thing, since your last posts several weeks ago, it seemed then the help from the site was telling you to go with what fits your personal programme.

It would have appeared then that you have the disipline to manage the study along with your familiy, career and not forgetting your mention of already being a seasoned pro that has also published.

The Canadian prof's have told you it doesn't matter where you get that Ph.D, go with the quality. But from all of the last correspodence posted on your topic, wasn't it about getting tenure or recognition by the U of T or some other Canadian University, as being your final goal?

Back to you question of the day.

1) Sure the Brit universities are wonderful, cooperative, expensive and somewhat recognisable.

In typical Brit fashion, they offer you the research degree route to Ph.D by sending you off into M.Phil land for one year. If you like this 2 step approach, money being no object, you can hack the resident bit and of course you like their reseach and advisors...then go for it and will probably take you 3-4 years.

2) South Africa, well what can we say about these guys...SLOW..Non communicative at times, well there are posters on this site that are currently doing the South Africa thing. I believe some are at UNISA, UNIZUL & THE CAPE.

Have you investigated the other SA universities to see what there is?

Bottom line on SA. If you finally get an answer from them (keep telephoning them it's faster) accepting you in with an advisor, and you like their study offerings with your reseach intersets, then cost is prime in this decision. Since the Doctorate you finally get from SA, really is of no consequence to your Canadian prof's, whats the issue left to discuss?

Surely there are SA prof's at the U of T?

3) The USA approach..Have you gone this route for comparing offerings from any of the good universities down there? It's alot closer, easy to get to even if you have to do resident week (s), and cost, well this is something for you to work on.

J.R (ic)

 

Thank you John and Gert. I did talk to Cape in SA. The CS department was a one man show. But the prof. was extremely helpful and seemed too nice. He wanted me to travel to SA multiple times... which is not an option. Finally he agreed on tavel once per year. Still not an option.

Unisa is slow, slow, and more slow. I am still waiting to find out who my advisor would be and what his/her background is.

BTW John, glad to see you've been promoted to a senior member

 

Javad, lets assume here and now that we make the decision for you, and its to go with UNISA.

What will it take to get you started, what do you need to satisfy yourself that is?. Get them to confirm that you have the advisor/supervisor assigned to you and get the letter of offer and confirmation acceptance, pay the money and..go to it.

Now having made that rational decision, how long do you think it will take you to decide and to finish the Ph.D through UNISA?

J.R(ic)

 

Good point. Consider Pretoria.

 

Maybe deep down I think less of UNISA than the UK Universities, and that's why I am so undecided. Why, I don't know. Maybe I feel I can provide a better explanation as to why I chose UK. Maybe I don't want to face the question "So, why UNISA?".. etc...

And no, I have not found an UNISA graduates teaching at UofT.

And yes, you're right. I have to move on. Point taken.

I would very much to research the advisors. For that, I need a reply from UNISA.

 

Good decision, satsify yourself with the answers from UNISA, but keep the heat on them and ask them daily for a response. Also ask them every possible question all at the same time,you need to to get that answer you want, dont wait for them to give you an answer to one or two questions..load it up.

Then, once your at the the stage 30 days from now with unsatisfactory replies from UNISA, just cut them off and go with your Brit universities, otherwise you will still be at this 3 months from now.

J.R (ic)

 

For a resident of North America I think that a British degree would prove to have a much wider recognition and acceptance than one from SA.

 

Thank you Ian. This is exactly what I am afraid of when it comes time to apply for a faculty position at a U nearby.

 

I would go for the University of Liverpool since it has a very good reputation in Computer Science. If you do a google search you can find many professor teaching at canadian universities with a PhD from University of Liverpool, however, none from university of SA.

Here few that I found:

http://www.afns.ualberta.ca/Faculty/Bios/

http://www.science.ca/scientists/scientistprofile.php?pID=343

http://www.grad.uwaterloo.ca/calendar/Grad_Calendar/Science/SCbiolinst.html

http://registrar.mcmaster.ca/calendar/year9899/sec_641.htm


There is not much evidence of canadian universities hiring graduates from University of SA, but neither from the commercial DL american degrees like Capella or Argosy.

In my opinion a PhD from UNISA would be very hard to sell, it can have some utility as an adjunct instructor. In my university, we have several adjunct PhDs from less developed countries like India, Russia and Yougoslavia.

I believe it is possible to get a full tenure position with a PhD from UNISA, but it won't be easy for sure. The competition is tough.

 

Javad: Congrats so far. Gert's advice is good--check out Pretoria.
Maybe also Wits, Natal, UCT, possibly (???) RAU. The descriptions of SA universities and their habits match my own experience. My field is theology, so the ones I looked at aren't necessarily the ones that are good in your field. It does take a certain amount of patience, but if you find the right advisor/contact professor, you can really get wonderful support.
I have no idea who's well regarded in your field by country--is Australia an option? Probably less expensive than UK, though more than SA.
Best of luck to you.

 

Javad, I think RF Valve made a good point, its almost like we all missed it. I guess the Ph.D thing is one of credential and qualification, however most Canadian universities where your planning to get tenure would look real close at the degree & where it was earned.

Sure, the fact that you may have good experience, research interests, published works and programs that fit within the university framework, but to get that nice position, the DL degree may not work for the application your intending to use it for?

If it's the Doctorate your after the choice is simple, but the UK degree will probably carry (as RF said) more credibility in Canada.

J.R (ic)

 

Pretoria did not have what I was looking for. The only Australian U that fit my requirements was CSU and I am still waiting to hear from them. Their cost is around 6K per year. Based on my initial converstaion with the research secretary at CSU, the require frequent visits to CSU. Once they do accept me and assign an advisor to me, I will try to negotiate the "visists".

So the saga continues... Hopefully, when I post "round 3", my decision will be made.

Thx.

 

Caveat studentia

Liverpool and Liverpool John Moore are two different universities, the former being the older and traditional.

Thinking slightly ahead it is nor certain that UNISA will amount to much. Gross inefficiency in administration is a bad sign of a declining general standard. What any degree will be worth might be problematical in the wider world.

While price is no guarantee of quality there is some irreducable minimum cost blow which the quality is suspect. To offer a PhD programme at 1,500 (GBP, USD, or, horrors, SA Rand?) is below the faculty cost of quality staff, and I would be most careful of deciding on a cost basis. UK professors earning GBP1,500 a month would be of the most dubious quality (I cannot imagine at which university they would earn so low - senior lecturers twenty years ago earned more: I know I was one) and PhD supervision lasts fulltime 3 years (DL five or seven). This means you must be supervised by part-time adjunct faculty, or faculty being paid peanuts (which is highly suspect), or next to none at all.

If UNISA is responding so badly before you join, it must be worse afterwards (a law of customer service since Roman times).

Bradford has a track record. UNISA soundsa like it is going off the rails. I do not envy your decision.

 

Although CSU is an accredited australian university, its reputation is not very good, some would say bad. The university of Liverpool has an excellent reputation. If the folks from CSU are requiring you to travel then the money you save in tuition you will spend in transportation. I would stay with Liverpool.

 

As Prof. Kennedy has pointed out, it's not Liverpool that is being considered. Liverpool John Moores (formerly Liverpool Poly) is a completely different institution.

 

You continue to receive good advice on all sides of the issue. I'll pile on a bit. First, I'd say that I agree with Ian when he states that the British school/degree will have generally better name recognition. Is that worth the difference in price? I don't know. It depends on how much money you've got in the bank, I guess. I'd also disagree with Prof. Kennedy when he takes the shot at UNISA's costs, administrative inefficiency, etc. and comes to the conclusion that the school won't be around long or must not be very good. This is jumping to a conclusion. UNISA will be around forever regardless of the mess. It may never be ranked with the best schools in the world but will remain a viable and valuable educational resource for zillions of people in Africa and across the world. Finally, I'd say I'm surprised at your complete unwillingness to go to SA. Even with the cost of the plane ticket/accomodations, the SA degree is cheaper than the UK degree. As for the time commitment, are you being told by the UK PhD programs that you'll NEVER have to fly to the UK? If so, that's very unusual. Get it in writing. On balance, with all other things being equal (advisors, etc.) I'd say that if you have the money you should do the UK program. If you don't have the money it's a moot point. Good luck,
Jack

 

Oh no, there's a misunderstanding. Both UK and CSU in Australia require me to travel there once or twice during my course of study. UNISA says travel is rarely required. U of W Cape in SA requires me to travel once/twice per year. That, is not an option for me. If I have to travel anywhere, I prefer to travel to UK. It's an overnight flight, and it's familiar territory. Spending 2 days in a plance to go to Australia or SA scares the heck our of me.

Funny thing is, after discussing my educational intentions at work, they're willing to pay a bit towards my degree. Not much, but every little bit helps.

As for money, no, I am not loaded at all. I like the UK name and love the SA affordability. That's why I have so much difficulties making a decision.

Regards,
J.

 

We would call somone halfway between the UK and South Africa a "soutpiel" or (affectionately) a "soutie."


(I'll probably get in trouble for that.)