Spelling and grammar foolishness

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by digit, Nov 13, 2002.

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  1. digit

    digit New Member

    I love degreeinfo.com, this place is by far the best place in the world to get information on distance education. I don't intend on flaming anyone in particular but I have to talk about this issue because in virtually every thread of some length and any thread were there is a flame war someone makes comments about peoples spelling and grammar, either just to state a person has poor spelling and they don't like that , or because there is a flame war going on and people use it to their advantage for some reason. It's kind of like there is a war going on sometimes and this is the ammunition.

    I don't know all the reasons for the constant battering of people's ability of the English language. Maybe it is because there are so many academics here that have studied the English language in detail and cherish it. Whatever the reason it does not justify these comments in my opinion. I will maintain that anyone that is willing to study the English language in great detail can be as good as the best here if that person was willing to work very hard. The same applies for any academic here that was willing to study physics, programming, or something like that.

    What I am trying to get at is that anyone has the ability to learn whatever the person next to him knows but you cannot expect everyone to actually want or need to learn that specific thing. Many people study other things other than English and don't mind poor spelling or things like that. They simply matter less in more science specific stuff where people care more about discovering, inventing, or figuring out new stuff rather than taking great care to make sure the English is perfectly accurate. I know of one thing as a programmer that is the same thing and equally foolish.

    In programming you have a certain style, you indent and write your code so that it looks good and is easily readable for you. However if that indentation and look does not satisfy the style of other programmers you can be sure that they will flame your ass off because it does not satisfy their requirements. Same with the content of the code, a lot of C/C++ coders can't stand seeing "goto's" in code, etc. Another point is that people that use Unix very often flame or think less of a person because of what editor he uses, a vi user usually thinks less of a person if they don't use vi for example.

    My point is that it is a waste of time thinking less of and correcting people because of their spelling and grammar. You simply don't know anything about that person. I am sure that in some obscene cases were the text of a person is incomprehensible then corrections or a statement saying that the post is unreadable is in order. I just think people are wasting time posting comments about peoples spelling, or using it as ammunition in a flame ware, or for some other reason. Getting angry over grammar is such a stupid and trivial thing considering the world that we live in.

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2002
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Your last paragraph is the crux of the matter. It (grammar) is sometimes relevant, especially when people use themselves as examples of whatever point they're trying to make. It goes to their credibility. I've done it in that vein.

    That said, I try to avoid making such comments in the average exchange. It can be hurtful and inflammatory. (Which is another reason to do it with someone who is being belligerent.) Also, many people do not speak English as their native tongue. I would not want to communicate in Spanish or--covered in two decades of rust--the 11 s.h. I earned in Czech!

    Dobry den, y'all!
     
  3. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    An excellent post, digit . . .

    . . . except (among other things) for your obvious inability to use commas and hyphens constructively, your incessant use of run-on sentences, and the fact that your next-to-concluding sentence ended with a preposition.

    I give it, um, a C++.

    P.S. Welcome to degreeinfo.com. Nice to see you've brought a bottle of whine with you.

    (Okay, lighten up, it was a joke.) :D
     
  4. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Though a secondary school teacher of English, I agree that ideation not conventions is more important.

    yet it wood seme!! thet one a bord who are devotted two lerning howbiit bi distenc ?! uh curtin digre , off corect, sin tax , an gude spelin shud be axpectid??
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2002
  5. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    Being Scottish, English is the only foreign language I know - er, it's also the only language I know.

    However, I take the point from 'digit' seriously and heartily agree, at least in the case of students, especially those who write in English when it is not their first language (as is the case among EBS students - even without counting North Americans and Antipodeans who ... no I won't go down that road).

    Spelling is matter of covention and there are few absolutes. Grammar is a matter of clarity when correct but is still understandable when not perfectly correct.

    I do not mark spelling or grammar in examination answers - though I may circle obvious errors while reading if only to prove out of habit (before I became a senior academic) to colleagues and External Examiners that I have read the student's answer carefully!

    As for 'flaming' ( new word, presumably meaning being rude and angry with someone who disagrees with you or is annoying you) by being sarcastic about spelling errors or grammar I agree that it is totally unnecessary and bad manners (unless the subject under debate is correct spelling and the need for pedantic grammar!). Writing in a hurry sometimes I make 'typo' errors and occasional spelling errors, which I try to catch on the edit facility but don't always notice them in the ten minutes allowed here.
     
  6. digit

    digit New Member

    Re: levicoff

    You are correct. I never have and I probably never will be good with commas and hyphens not even in my own language.

    I am sure you are dead on with the run-on sentences but I am not taking an English exam here which is exactly the point I tried to raise in my post. People are here to discuss distance education and get insight from people that have great experience and knowledge in that field and not to get flamed.

    You did exactly what I was talking about in my post. You tried to flame me by scrutinizing the content of my post according to your superior knowledge of the English language forgeting to consider different backgrounds and ignoring somewhat what I was talking about except for the excellent post remark of course.

    I am sure most of the average people here make sure that their spelling is correct by using word's spelling & grammar checks because they are petrified (exaggerated) of getting flamed. I certainly ran my text through the spelling check and look how much that has helped me.

    Just try to set your prejudices aside and consider that people have different interests and knowledge and might not care as much about spelling and things like that. This is an educational forum but I still maintain because it really has no borders that people should keep such comments to themselves. Is that so hard?

    -----

    . . . except (among other things) for your obvious inability to use commas and hyphens constructively, your incessant use of run-on sentences, and the fact that your next-to-concluding sentence ended with a preposition.

    I give it, um, a C++.

    P.S. Welcome to degreeinfo.com. Nice to see you've brought a bottle of whine with you.

    (Okay, lighten up, it was a joke.)
     
  7. BobC

    BobC New Member

    Yes I agree too, when I see people here critique other's spelling and grammar as a side part to a debate or argument I always read a level of uppityness and stuckupness (are those words?) which I never liked in people.
     
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I rarely see anyone criticised on Degreeinfo because of their writing. In those few cases when people are, they usually are promoting a non-recognised and very doubtful "university", and arguing that it has given them a fine education. If they write like a middle school student, they are contradicting themselves with their own words. It's certainly reasonable to point that out.

    All that we are here is just words on a screen. That's all that anyone else has to respond to.

    I agree that some subjects are more writing-intensive than others. Obviously some jobs place a higher premium on written communication than others. And we all know that many DL students aren't native English speakers.

    We probably need to have a little sensitivity to that stuff.

    Nevertheless, if a person is unable to communicate with minimum proficiency, doubts will be raised about whether he or she can do anything else with any proficiency. That's simply a fact of life, digit. You will find that employers and clients often think that way too.

    We aren't talking about MFAs in literary fiction here. One needn't turn out publishable prose. But people do have to try to avoid looking like an idiot if they are simultaneously making claims about the quality of their education.
     
  9. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    tchuk tchuk tchuk squee squee
     
  10. telfax

    telfax New Member

    I agree and disagree..!

    Doing a degree is also about improving one's ability to write logically and show ability to analyse and so forth. The more a person practices the better s/he becomes at using words and that is , in my view, half the battle! Unfortunately, we are seeing education/learning assessment redsuced to 'qucik fix' responses to all sorts of 'quick fix' questions! All of these may have their place but so does the traditional essay, assignment and project that demands (or should do!) the ability to express yourself in a coherent manner. I agree with professor Kennedy but, unlike him, I do expect reasonable sentence structure, punctuation and so forth. I'm personally not perfect in all these things by any means! This younger generation basically, in my view (and of course with exceptions) , has lost (or has not been taught!) how to construct logical and wella rgued answers to examination questions. We are reducing everything down to multiple-choice and unseen written papers that are so short (90 minutes to respoind to 4 questions) that they become worthless!

    Lets see where this goes!

    Apologies in advance for typos, spelling errors, grammar and so on!.

    'telfax'
     
  11. Professor Kennedy

    Professor Kennedy New Member

    telefax: "I agree with professor Kennedy but, unlike him, I do expect reasonable sentence structure, punctuation and so forth."

    From whom do you expect a 'reasonable sentence structure, punctuation and so forth'? That is the question. In a serious book I do too. In serious books that is how I would write, even at ms stage before the copy editor got to work (though different publishers and their house-styles can be difficult to please!).

    But from students writing exam answers in our 3-hour exams?
    From colleagues writing messages to each other on degreeinfo.com? As they say in Glasgow: 'give us a break' (spelling modernised out of local dialect for North American, Antipodean and non-English and non-Scots as a first language readers).

    If you expect us to accept your apologies in an open forum why do you expect anonymous others to do better than you in closed fora like examinations?
     
  12. telfax

    telfax New Member

    You're missing the point..and you know it!

    I'm British-like you! You, like me, know what has been expected in the past when it comes to writing answers to unseen written examination papers - typically, answer 4 questions out of 9 or 10 in 3 hours! This is still the 'norm' in many UK universities and many US students would simply 'fall by the wayside' if presented with such a situation - but then again most US students are not faced with this situation and are not taught/rehearsed to deal with this type of examination.

    Last week I was externally examining at a private US college in London at BBA degree level (business management). Candidates frequently started their answers with sentences/statements such as:

    Well, now lets see. If we can imagine ....etc, etc.

    If you find this approach acceptable to answering a question in a timed written examination on a quite specific topic...I do not! I actually don't think you would/do find this acceptable!

    This examination assessment was at one of those RA institutions people here keep on about! The student was on a one-year exchange programme from a major US university and back home was averaging a GPA of 4.0!! Well, I mean.....!! The other students attending the programme full-time were worse!

    Extreme case guys, so treat this gently but look at the point I am making! Going 'international' must not mean reducing standards which ever culture we come from. Neither am I trying to take a 'swipe' at the US system of education -other than to state that I am less than impressed with the RA system and that the same route (facilities, hours put in, etc and with less and less emphasis on 'scholarship', 'meaning', 'learning', 'understanding' ....and seeing the world/yourself 'differently' as a result of completing a programme) is ow starting to be adopted in the UK. Everything is being (has been) reduced to modules, time put in and bottoms on seats and this dreadful word/description... 'competencies'!

    One final question to Prof Kennedy. How many of your MBA graduates go one and take a doctorate (or are capable of doing so) after successfully completing your MBA degree programme? I ask this question fully understanding that your MBA is a stand-alone programme and not a preparation for taking doctoral studies. Therein lies another issue....too many people, assume because they've completed a master's degree they can go on, and are capable of doing, a doctorate. The evidence proves otherwise, save that in the UK we are going the same way of the US...taught doctorates (essentially bigger and better master's level programmes-and that is all many US doctorates are!) with little or very questionable scholarly research. Interestingly, in the US there is great concern about the number of candidates who complete the doctoral course work but are ABD (all but dissertation). Should this be UATDAD (unable to do a dissertation-for whatever reason!). The same is happening in the UK taught doctoral programmes (EdD, DBA, etc) with more and more candidates failing to complete the thesis/dissertation part of the doctoral programme!

    This is sufficient!

    'telfax'

    I guess enough is enough!
     
  13. Roscoe

    Roscoe Guest

    Great writers, lousy spellers!

    For what it's worth, I can think of two great writers who were poor spellers: F. Scott Fitzgerald and William Faulkner.

    The bright side is that they had good content and good editors.

    On a side note, there is a difference between formal and informal writing, academic and popular writing.

    That difference hit home for me when I was a seminary student and newshound. By day, I wrote formal papers for the professor. At night, I had to switch gears and follow the style of my paper.

    Every now and then, the two styles would accidently cross over. For instance, I used a contraction in a report which drew harsh criticism from my prof. In the newsroom, I slipped into some academic jargon which triggered shouts from my editor.

    As Stephen King, Robert W. Bly and William Zinsser (On Writing Well) would tell you, ending a sentence with a preposition is not wrong (unless you're writing in academics or to please an English teacher). Beginning a sentence with a conjunction is not wrong. Using run-on sentences is not wrong.

    It's just that they are not appropriate for certain types of writing, particularly, formal, academic papers. But in copywriting, fiction, journalism, hey, go for it!

    As William Saffire once said, you are permitted to break the rules only when you know the rules. I believe James Kirpatrick (not sure of spelling) said the same.

    I am not engaging in an argument here. Just offering some food for thought.

    Roscoe

    P.S. Don't shoot! I didn't do a spell-check :)
     
  14. Han

    Han New Member

    Coming form the Marketing side of life, it is not what you say, but how you say it. Why are products purchased, why are people hired for jobs, it is presentation. In an informal setting such as this, I think that misspellings and grammatics is not as important as in the workplace.

    When applying for my MBA, I had a typo in my essay. I called to ask for comments (which this University did give detailed comments back). To my surpsrise this was noted in my file.

    In the proper forum, it is critical. To make an point in debate is actually detrimental to one's argument.

    Kristie
     
  15. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    Re: Great writers, lousy spellers!

    As Winston Churchill said, "there are some things up with which I will not put!"

    Of course, he was poking fun at the sometimes tortured grammar of the English language.
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2002
  17. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    covention, not coventation
     
  18. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    -------------------------

    OK, what's that?
     
  19. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    -----------------------

    Who said "coventation"? Unk are sipping too much of that brew you're always inviting others to share with you? (now you see it, now you don't!:D )
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: I agree and disagree..!

    -----------------------------------

    I think it is ironic that unaccredited Trinity in Indiana requires three hour ,written , comprehensive , subjective , proctored exams for each course.

    But the most thorough class exam I ever took was by an old saint, Robert Cook (ThD, Dallas) , who bunched us seated around him and drilled us verbally carefully probing each response. He exhaustively plumbed the depths of our knowledge concerning fine theological points. Boy did we prepare for that exam! I think my IQ or learning quotient shot up 10 points by that one course! I wish DL learning could replicate that, but am not sure it can exempting the thesis perhaps.
     

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