Question for Theology/Church guys (and gals)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Roscoe, Nov 2, 2002.

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  1. Roscoe

    Roscoe Guest

    Do you ever feel the need to have a secular degree in order to balance out your credentials?

    That's something I think about since all of my degrees are in the religious field. Somehow I feel the need to get something secular in order to be legit as a true academic.

    Though I have worked in the fulltime ministry for a considerable amount of years, I also have worked in the secular field (and continue to do so as a freelancer). Yet, I can't help but feel something is lacking.

    I'm thinking that after I complete my doctorate in theology, I'll pick up a master's in some secular field -- even if I never use it to teach in a secular school.

    Can any of you relate to this?

    Roscoe
     
  2. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    No I can't. Wish I had no secular qualifications. On my death bed I will yet regret my choice of school teaching over ministry/ Bible teaching in 1968. Perhaps I could have instead taught in some little Bible College my favorite subject having finished years ago then what I am only now attempting to do. Now it takes me twice to read the Cappadocians in order to grasp their meaning thanks to my old brain. So glad that while I cannot forgive myself Someone can.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2002
  3. roy maybery

    roy maybery New Member

    I on the other hand am a secular type, who has for a long time fancied getting a divinity degree for much the same reason.

    R.V.Maybery B.A. (hons)., B.A., B.Ed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2002
  4. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Roy

    Get one!
     
  5. BlackBird

    BlackBird Member

    It all depends...

    I think that it is great to have credentials that compete with secular standing while having your theological degrees. A lot depends on "spiritual" giftedness. A person who has an appreciation for "apologetical" approaches and interfacing will aptly use secular credentials in order to be more palatable to those who value them. In your case, I would strongly recommend you get some type of degree that would also be useful in your ministry based work. Such a degree could be a Masters in Counseling Psychology, Marriage and Family Therapy, Addictions, Social Work, etc. If you can tailor the degree to satisfy your state licensure requirements then you have hit several targets with one shot. You then have more options in many directions versus being limited only to church/ministry based work.

    Perhaps you can find a Ph.D. in Counseling such as Liberty's or Regents (Virginia) that might take you in straight without having to do a Masters degree in that field. This might be possible if you make it "pastoral" in emphasis, thus utilizing your previous theological training. If you can pull this off you would have made an amazing coup since you could also get your licensure requirements at the Masters level fulfilled. I hope this helps and is not too confusing.
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Anybody who can grasp the Cappadocians fully on only a second reading is smarter than he thinks he is.
     
  7. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No Unk, I meant one page!
     
  8. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Choice?

    "Your" choice?

    You mean you had a choice in the matter?

    You aren't as Calvinistic as you want me to think, Bill. <smile>
     
  10. Roscoe

    Roscoe Guest

    Thanks Blackbird,

    No, your recomendation was not confusing. I found it very helpful. I've been so focused on getting teaching credentials, I completely overlooked the option of being a licnsed counselor. It certainly is worth considering.

    Rosoe
     
  11. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    A great theological philosopher named Lenny Bruce once observed that each generation saves up to buy their kids galoshes. When the storms finally come, the kids go outside barefoot, digging the rain.

    All three of my degrees are from secular colleges and universities, but all of my class-based teaching has been in a seminary and a Bible college. Do I have any regrets that I did not earn my degrees from theological institutions? Of course not. I am just as perfect now as I was then.

    (Okay, I'll really get offensive. Despite the fact that my teaching has been at Fundie schools, at least no one has ever said to me, "Ah, you got your degrees at one of those Fundie schools." Nyuk, nyuk . . .)

    On a more serious note, I have always found it interesting that many theological types believe that one should receive his or her master's degree from a school with which the student has doctrinal compatability, then go for the doctorate at a school at which the student is not doctrinally compatable. One might wonder if this is a ruse to get students into secular doctoral programs because they are perceived as more credible. Just a rhetorical thought . . .
     
  12. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ------------------------------------------

    Calvinists have choices, just not libertarian ones like Pelagius and his bro Arminius!!! (hee, hee).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2002
  13. Roscoe

    Roscoe Guest

    Levicoff,

    Thanks for stepping in. I agree that many view secular doctorates as being more credible. At least, that seems to be the unspoken truth in the places I've been.

    Roscoe

    P.S. Been looking for your book, Name It and Frame It. Is it out of print? If so, will you do an updated version?

    P.P.S. Given your experiences, I bet you could write a mean memoir. How about it? (smile)
     
  14. Christopher Green

    Christopher Green New Member

    How to make this decision...

    Hey Roscoe:

    What would you do if you could do anything, anything at all???

    When I look at your degrees I think you have done quite a bit of "general" work in the Christian guild. As far as I can tell, you are more of an integrated thinker. Doing a "secular" degree is only going to sharpen your skills.

    Besides, career advice can't take place for a Christian, I think, without considering spirituality. For me, the matter is not what I am studying in particular, but my conformity to the Christ-like way of living God has for me. The Bible never says, "thou shalt attend an ATS accredited school" (although it does say "it would be better to pluck out your right eye than to attend a TRACS accredited school!!! HA! J/K).

    And since you are not Bill, you have a choice in the matter. You are "free" to make a decision. :D :D :D I totally agree with Bill on Calvin, but I didn't have a choice. I had to write it.

    If I were you, I would consider carefully why you are asking this question, find the need you are trying to meet. If it's not a desire contrary to the principles in Scripture, you can do whatever you want. Then consider yourself free to fulfill that desire with what you decide to do. That may just be what God has for you.

    ?

    Chris
     
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: How to make this decision...

     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: How to make this decision...

    I sensed an irresistible grace drawing me to this statement, and could do nothing but believe that Bill had directed these words toward me. :D
     
  17. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Re: Re: How to make this decision...

    Okay. God is omniscient and omnipotent. If we are predestined why are we here? To prove the truth to ourselves? If we believe we are predestined where is the need to do that? Could God (being omnipotent) forbid this knowledge from himself? Would that make predestination any less of a reality?

    Tony

    I believe this is the main issue I have always had with religion. :(
     
  18. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    I wouldn't call it "balancing," but it wouldn't hurt to have a "secular" credential as career insurance.
     
  19. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: How to make this decision...

    --------------------------------------

    Hi Tony

    I only joke in this frivolous sparring with Russell or North or Chris or Roscoe you know. Some regularly do likewise with me . And so this is not meant as a challenge to anyone's faith or lack of it. If I can put up with someones bantering about their own genitals then my jokes about my religious views should offend no one here (but I'm not saying you are). I am just saying I am not in those expressions serious.

    But this subject has been much vigorously contended since Augustine and that it is a sore spot with you or any one who really does think in these areas should surprise no one.


    Were this your *main issue* though with "religion"-- and I suppose by that you mean Christianity as this is this context of my remark and this is a teaching of some sections of Christianity--then I would suggest that there is no good reason for one to shun this Faith because of how some present the divine decree. Others in Christendom do not teach as I believe.

    Yet were any wishing to discuss these topics at length and seriously I would oblige-- preferably privately. But let's be clear on the only "battlefield" I choose to "fight." In my post above, again in jest, I anchored my belief in Scripture. I'm not "good" enough to defend my hermeneutics of Scripture in an arena of disbelief about Scripture. There needs to be common ground if I'm involved and that is not human reasoning or philosophy. But perhaps I could give an answer to those who agree with me as to what is the standard of religious truth by exegetics and by systematics.

    So, if anyone wishes to meet me there I am in the Books of Ephesians and Isaiah:,

    "For He chose us before the creation of the world...He predestined us...we were chosen having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity to the purpose of His will" (chap one)

    "I am God, there is no other..I will make known the end from the beginning...My purpose will stand and I will do all that I please...what I have said I will bring about, what I have planned that I will do." (chap 46)

    Yet somehow in all of this there is the divine Scriptural plea for me to exercise rightly my own will and that I am responsible to do so. There seems to be an expectation by God that I will choose, " (you) Come unto Me and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28).Even Calvin, you know, agreed that we all make choices using our own wills (so Chris' joke is not correctly anchored in Calvinism). A point though is whether this choice is the product of our nature and limited by it.

    So I have chosen to believe two *seemingly* contradictory positions. My guess is I am not smart enough to reconcile them to anyone's satisfaction but my own. That I have done!

    But if anyone wishes to discuss with me the meaning or veracity of my interpretations of Scripture as I have time I'll do that. But I only want to do such on my own playing field which is Scripture itself.
     
  20. BlackBird

    BlackBird Member

    Here are more options...

    Roscoe,

    Here are some more ideas:

    1. Approach Capella U. on doing a self-directed Ph.D. under their Human Services Dept. where you can include counseling courses that satisfy your state licensure requirements on the Masters level. If you want to incorporate spirituality, then you could do your thesis in some integration area of counseling and applied theology principles.

    2. Consider Union Institute's Arts and Science Ph.D. which permits you to make your doctoral program according to your liking.

    I understand that Capella has one of the most generous transfer credit policies around. For their Human Services Doc. they accept up to 36 credit hours from a Masters degree. I think Union takes zero. I looked at Union, but their "bad" transfer credit policy is a tremendous downer, especially if you have done a 60 credit hour counseling Masters like I have. Though your credits might be in theological arenas, it would not hurt to negotiate with Capella. I don't think Capella would be as flexible in their Psychology dept. as they would be in their Human Services dept. Nevertheless, check them out (Capella: www.capella.edu , Union: www.tui.edu )

    I agree that it would be better to get your grad degrees from secular institutions since that would give you the most marketability and legitimacy with both secular and religious communities.

    Hope this helps you.
    (")
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2002

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