Questioning the consistency and equivelancy of the thesis

A thesis or a dissertation or a project frequently is a part of, or even the whole of, a graduate degree program.

But I've seen little discussion here regarding the equivalencies between thesis only and classroom work , or regarding as well disparities between thesis expectations of the various degrees, or departments, or schools, or forms of accreditation schools have , or differences resulting from the various countries schools are in.

So if one does a DL masters by dissertation only does that product really substantially represent the equivalent work and learning done by semester hours in the classroom? Should the B and M classroom student rightfully say, "Ha, I did my MA the hard way"?

Or should the RA grad assume his thesis is superior to the NA grad because the accreditation is different?

Or as in the case where a degree is based on classwork as well, is a 9 hour DA or DMin "project" really more than twice the work or expectation of my 4 hour only ThM thesis which utilized two languages in exegesis? Do the larger number of hours really represent more time and rigor?

Or is a thesis done in say science more demanding, simply because of the subject matter , than a thesis done in say philosophy?

Or is a thesis only PhD really the equivalent of two years of classwork plus a dissertation? Could that possibly be?

Or is it just a sure thing that a thesis out of the Uk would be better than one out of Australia?

 

spelling

sorry, make that "EQUIVALENCY"

I have diabetes , I sort of fade out. Then think slowly ,and only with much effort, and the 10 minute time limit for editing isn't always enough.

 

I think it's safe to say that graduate degrees by thesis are as rigorous as those that are "taught." In the former, the theses are considerably more comprehensive than in taught programs. (At least, that's what I've read from people with experience in them; my master's was coursework-only and my doctoral program is a dissertation plus an analytical piece that covers what would be coursework.)

Bill: "Or should the RA grad assume his thesis is superior to the NA grad because the accreditation is different?"

Not on an individual basis, no. I don't know if there has been any research regarding differing levels of quality between theses written at NA and RA schools. I would be very interested to see the methodology and criteria for measuring that question!

(That goes for the U.K. vs. Australia question, too.)

Bill: "Or is a thesis done in say science more demanding, simply because of the subject matter , than a thesis done in say philosophy?"

I would think not necessarily. The opposite could be argued, saying that philosophy is a more difficult subject to nail down and, thus, would require more analysis than the scientific question. And again, it begs the question, what does "more demanding" mean?

 

Degrees of originality

The separation of Bachelor degrees, Masters degrees (by thesis) and PhDs by thesis is along a continuum of 'orginality'.

Think of a Bachelor degree as establishing to the examiners that the candidate has understanding of existing knowledge - no Bachelor degree that I know of (but the world is vast and variations unlimited) deals with subjects at or near the frontier.

Think of a Masters by thesis as demonstrating to the examiners an orginal application of existing knowledge.

Think of a PhD thesis as demonstrating to the examiners that the candidate has made an original contribution to the body of knowledge in the chosen discipline. The literature review that is usually Chapter 1 sets out the state of existing knowledge and the rest of the Chapters credibly move the defined boundaries in some way outwards.

Both MSc and PhD degrees by thesis in the traditional (i.e., thirty to forty years ago in the UK) were 'pass or fail'. The successful candidate had demonstrated their originality at least to some acceptable standard. They were not graded, thus avoiding the
problem of comparing one degree in one discipline with another, or even one thesis with another in the same discipline. If they demonstrated to the third party examiners (senior professorial faculty in the discipline with external professors present too) their originality they were judged to have passed as eligible for the award.

Taught Masters and PhDs dilute the originality test - a dissertation plus taught subjects is generally going to be of less weight than a 1 or 2 year MSc or a 3 yearr PhD by thesis. I am not suggesting these degrees are a less severe test - they are different thats all.

 

On a Side Note

I have a colleague who is currently teaching organizational theory in a public administration program. She is from the U.K. and did her M.Phil and Ph.D. in England. While the univeristy at which she is now a tenure track professor accepted her credentials as being equivalent to any American credentials, they could not seem to understand why she couldn't produce a transcript. After a million explanations, they finally understood that her credentials were by dissertation and thesis only. There was no coursework, thus no transcript.

By the way, she thinks it was much better than doing coursework.

 

Re: Degrees of originality

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Prof K

What do you mean "less weight?" To make it easy for me suppose the discipline is Christian theology.

Suppose one student completes a BA in Theology through classwork. Then for the MA does a dissertation only on the word "believe" in the Fourth Gospel. Then for the thesis only Phd , writing on The Influences of the Septuagint on first century judaism. So the student has a doctorate based on 30 semester units of undergrad theology and two extremely narrow research papers.

The second student does BA, MA, and PhD by classwork mostly with two papers of less substance, but is exposed considerably more by the coursework to the wide area of theological study.

Which is best equipped to teach?


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In for a penny, in for a pound!

But not yet! I'm just going to see what others may post and then I'll give my 'two penny worth' as to the difference between all of this. The trouble is, if we start comparing the US with the UK system we are not comparing like with like. I've posted here before that Britain is about to 'throw the baby out with the bath water' - and have been hounded! Not for one moment do I believe the PhD programme is not worth looking at in the UK in terms of revising it but we are diluting what has been the 'true worth of a British PhD' at the expense of 'market forces' - for example, the new style US-type PhD now being experimented with in a certain number of UK universities has been devised solely to attract overseas students - especially from the Middle Eastern Arab States - and in case someone doesn't believe me get hold of the original 'consultative documents' that state just this fact! Has this something to do with money? In the UK (for years) overseas students (at every degree level) have had to pay virtually three times the tuition fees of a UK resident student and this system of exacting money from non-UK residents still pertains! I'll comment further on theses in due course!

'telfax'

I like Gavin Kennedy's response thuis far.

'telfax'

 

Bill:
"What do you mean 'less weight?' "

Sorry. Clumsy expression. I meant less weight in 'orginality' not in academic performance.

Depends on what we are demonstrating - original application and original contributions or academic excellence at the forefront of other people's orginality (the knowledge frontier must move out by someone's efforts).

Shorter or less depth in originality carries less weight than longer or deeper originality on the application or contribution of originality.

The academic world has changed. The frontier has moved outwards by the sheer bulk of scholars working in any field (there are more scientists alive and working today than have existed in the entire history of the human race, and there will soon be more scientists of all disciplines working in a decade than existed in the decades since 1800 - and progessively in the decades thereafter, until a decade's scientists exceed the previous decade). The taught Masters and PhDs reflect trying to cope with that massive glacial-high creep in knowledge. But the quality of their own originality - a test of sheer academic, dare I say, 'brilliance' - is of diminished importance in the taught programmes. As I said, they are not 'better' or 'worse', just different.

 

My reply would be 'no'. There are issues of breadth and focus. I'd assume that the course-based program would be broader but shallower than the thesis-only program.

The coursework/thesis-only distinction is a different issue than DL/B&M, isn't it? But to answer your question, I'd say 'no'. It isn't clear to me which route is "harder". That would depend on the individual, I think.

I think that people can do good work and never submit it to a university at all.

The accreditation issue is a certification issue. I guess that people could argue that RA schools maintain a higher standard on average. If that's true, it would suggest that theses from RA schools are more reliable, in the sense that there is less chance of a substandard one slipping through. But that doesn't imply that a thesis from a school with different accreditation, or no accreditation at all for that matter, is necessarily worse. Just that we really don't know.

I think that the expectations would be higher. What your subjective experience is while completing the project is another issue. People don't always agree on what is easy or difficult.

I don't want to start any transatlantic wars, but I personally prefer the latter. That's just my opinion, though.

In real life, I think that British and American Ph.D.s are both very well respected, despite their different models, and the individuals that earn them tend to do good work. I see no evidence that one nation or the other is infested with super-scholars. Research productivity is pretty good both places, I think.

That's ridiculous.

 

Bill Dayson:

If we would not expect on an average the research product from one country to be any better than from another country and if that research product was the only thing done for that degree, then the utility of and the respect for the doctorate would be the same irregardless of what country it was done in, is that right?

 

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Prof K

Quite a few Phds end up teaching. Quite a few teaching areas are very broad. Would you surmise that tons of brilliant originality poured into doing a thesis on the slenderest of problems better prepares one to teach than a doctorate taught?

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I think a good university department (including a Business School) needs a blend of both.

A Noble prize winner makes a contribution to a department as does the teacher from across the discipline dispensing other people's originality.

A PhD entirely by thesis has to know about everything possibly affecting the thesis - hence, the literature search - which takes him or her into the subject across a wider front than the actual thesis subject (indeed, focus drift is a problem for many PhD students).

I do not see a contradiction between originality in a subject field and teaching a broad curriculum in that subject. I think it adds credibility, particularly in assessing new work in the field - and remember the years pass since the PhD was awarded in a teaching career. In time the original contribution is supplanted by new research, until it lies forgotten on a shelf - or worse, until it lies discredited by young turks out to make a name for themselves by destroying what someone joyously created and for a while was celebrated for by colleagues.

It was ever thus.

 

Prof K

Thanks for your time, I see your point.

 

This is one of the reasons why I like the coursework plus dissertation model. There are often comprehensive examinations or something as well, to ensure a degree of breadth.

A lot would depend on particular cases, I guess. If a person is earning a Ph.D. entirely by research, what did his or her masters program cover? There may be a problem if the student entered the doctoral program immediately after earning an undergraduate degree, or if the masters degree was entirely by research too.

Another issue involves what the individual ends up teaching. Is he or she teaching an entire curriculum, including classes in many facets of the subject? Or is he or she only teaching very specialized courses and perhaps conducting research? You might see the former more often at small undergraduate colleges, and the latter more often at research universities.

I think that these kind of issues were one of the motivations for the introduction of the doctor of arts (D.A.) degree. This was conceived as a teaching degree that placed more emphasis on breadth and pedagogy than would a conventional Ph.D. with its narrower research focus. But since the D.A. carries less perceived status, it never seems to have caught on.

 

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You know Bill, I think there is at last something we agree about!
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I'm not sure that I agree with either the premises or the conclusion.

I will say that perceived standards, of national education systems, of particular universities and even of individual research products is probably influenced by prejudice and stereotype. The reception that a research product receives among non-specialists who are unfamiliar with it may have less to do with its real contributions than with its associations.

But I don't believe that all nations maintain the same standards (Switzerland and St. Kitts?), nor do I think that all degrees are equally well respected. (Berne and Berne?)

 

Bill Dayson,

Let me put this in positive statements to see if you'd then agree:



Premise: The country a GAAP school is located in is perceived to have no bearing on the quality of the work done for the thesis only doctorate.

Premise: What is perceived to give a thesis only doctorate utility and acceptance is the quality of the thesis.

Therefore, A doctorate earned by thesis only is equally accepted regardless of what country it is from.




You see, I don't think either premise or the conclusion is viable. Therefore, I don't think the question in my original post , much related to this syllogism, is "ridiculous." Perhaps I'm wrong??

 

I think there is another hybrid in U.S. education...something between taught courses+thesis and thesis-only. In my case, I had a "master project" in computer science for which I received only 3 out of the 36 required credits for the MS degree, the other 33 all being taught courses. However, the work for the project was equivalent to 9-12 credits in my estimation and included a substantial written work product and implementation effort.

My project was not a research effort by any stretch of the imagination; I would never publish it as a thesis. Mine resembled one more that most in this curriculum.

I know of one U.S. university (and I think there are many) that give(s) the MS students a choice of 36 credits of coursework+comprehensive exam or 29 credits of coursework+thesis.

 

I know of one U.S. university (and I think there are many) that give(s) the MS students a choice of 36 credits of coursework+comprehensive exam or 29 credits of coursework+thesis. [/B][/QUOTE]

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Point Loma (then Pasadena) offered one the choice of two extra classes or a 6 quarter hour thesis. The faculty urged the thesis, but I chickened out!