BA Hons @ MDiv? B.D. @ What?

I'm searching for another theological degree as one of my career options. If I go on for more theology I'm not only going to need money, time, etc.... I'm also going to need to figure out what the difference is between some of these degrees in the UK system that must be considered.

First of all, Jason Bakker's website says that the BA Hons (in theology) may be understood as the equivalent of the American MDiv and/or ThM. However, it is strange to me that when I look at the Curriculum Vitae of various teachers who have completed a BA Hons. They usually, actually did that degree it first, then they went on for an MLitt, MTS, or whatever. Then they may do something else, and THEN and PhD. I have one, specialized, higher degree in Old Testament Studies and would like to figure out a clean, efficient way to change fields to theology and get into a good PhD program, hopefully overseas. The BA Hons may offer the breadth I need (just as an MDiv would), but it doesn't seem to be the equivalent of the US ThM, which used to practically be a substitute at schools that needed teachers for a PhD. WHAT IS THE BA HONS FOR? Would it serve the purpose I'm looking for, that is, as an equivalent for the US ThM? If so, why do so many people do it first?

Secondly, I'm looking at the BD at U of London. I could sub some of the courses I've done for four of the ten modules they require and that would be expedient. Also, it seems that many teachers overseas make the BD a "transition degree" to do a PhD or ThD. It puzzles me, though, that it is the equivalent of the US "B.A." in theology, since many seem to use it as the last degree to take before a PhD in theology. This kind of degree would offer some more breadth (what I'm looking for), but I'm leery about it because it looks like another BA. And I just don't understand why so many seem to make it the "bridge degree" to a PhD (unless my observations are incorrect).

I'm aware that I could simply write an MTh at various schools, but this kind of specialization may be a detriment to my whole theological education since I'm changing fields to systematics. I could also begin on an MPhil, possibly, but I'm looking for something via DL.

Am I just searching for answers on this where there are none? Are all of these, somehow, basically the same in the UK? I would love to hear, from anyone who could tell me, what the real difference is between the BD and the BA Hons (in Divinity). Perhaps, then, I could research these issues with more clarity.

 

I am not going to be of much help but thought I would make comments anyway.

Years ago some would pursue the BD in the US as a first degree or after achieving a previous undergraduate degree. In many cases when it is one top of another undergraduate degree it is considered the equivalent of the MDiv and that is why you occasionally see the leap from BD to doctorate. An Anglican seminary still had the degree and it was for mature students who for hardship reasons could not pursue the liberal arts undergraduate degree which was a prerequisite for entry to the MDiv. They were on the ordination track an took the same classes as MDiv students.

The BA (Hons) is a funny thing. There does not seem to be much consensus here. I have seen a British University who had a classification of degrees (not sure where they got it from) around the world say that the British & Canadian BA (Gen) which is a three year degree was equivalent to a US 4 year Bachelors degree. A BA (Hons) from Canada & Britian was equivalent to a US Masters degree. Now, I think in the US they would not be so generous in ascribing superiority to British & Canadian Bachelors degrees.

If I were you I would check where your future plans are leading you. If you intend to pursue doctoral studies will the degree you pursue permit entry (etc). Are you considering ordination?

North

 

Thanks North...

thanks North.

I agree on the "checking" where future plans are leading me. Honestly, I am not certain I will do a PhD or a ThD. Right now, it seems to me, it depends twice as much on who you know in order to obtain a theological teaching position (over the degree).

So ordination would be a good thing---but that has been more of a peripheral issue for me until now. Currently, I'm honestly a blank slate. That may explain why I also post questions on the EdD vs. the PhD in Edu. etc. etc. I'm going to be getting my teaching credential very soon here. So when that is over, I plan on "moving on" with some decisions about theological education, ordination, etc.

Still, at this point I'm not considering ordination as seriously as I am thinking of obtaining a PhD in theology. I have the means, perhaps the competence (we'll see), and the desire to do one overseas. But I'm in the classic catch-22 being too specialized too early, having done too much work to do it, and wanting to get over the next hump more easily and on with the theology track.

Interesting comments on the BD. I'm leery on the BD because I already have a BA with two majors, one being theology. The BA Hons also looks like something the US schools would say "So What?" to. Is there any harder evidence of what the US schools think?

 

The following three schools offer masters level courses in theology:

Charles Sturt University in Australia
Coolamon College in Australia
The Centre for Christian Spirituality also in Australia

they are total DL and the price in right.


If you are looking for US schools, try the following:

Liberty University - the MDiv and the Master of Arts in Religion
Reformed Theology Seminary - MDiv and Master of Arts in Religion

Good Luck.

 

Howdy! A few comments...

1. The B.D. is the closest thing I've found to a British M.Div., though it does not generally take as much time to complete and seldom includes a very significant pastoral ministry component. I'm fairly confident that I will earn a B.D. myself at some indeterminate point down the road, probably after I've finished my Ph.D. (which is, as you've noted, kind of the reverse of what generally happens).

2. I do not believe that the Hons B.A. in Theology is comparable to an M.Div.; I would say that it is roughly equivalent to a general, course-based U.S. master's in theology (such as the Master of Theological Studies). Perhaps what Dr. Baker (who knows far more about religious degrees than I do) meant to say was that the Hons B.A. in Theology is equivalent in terms of non-U.S. ordination requirements, or that it is comparable in terms of degree level. But it does not generally involve the level of biblical language study or pastoral ministry training that a standard M.Div. does, and takes about half as much time to complete. The B.D. is closer to an M.Div. in terms of curricular requirements than an Hons B.A. in Theology is, but I wouldn't rate either as precisely equivalent to an M.Div. or I would have signed on for London's program long ago.

3. I could be wrong, but it is my experience that most schools offering a master's program in theology will happily accept someone with an undergraduate degree in Old Testament studies with a minimal (or nonexistent) amount of bridge coursework. I was certainly given no reason to expect problems along these lines when I researched the possibility of doing an M.A. in Theology some years ago, based on my little B.A. in Liberal Arts.

Good luck.


Cheers,

 

thanks guys...

Honestly, I'm not interested in the AU programs because the theology field is so competitive---I'm afraid that an AU program would put a barb on my already vibrant MA at TEDS in OT. But a UK program would be a step up in the eyes of US theology folks.

Any American school MA is fine, but it's a step down from a TEDS MA if I went to just about anyone that offers it via DL. My opinion is, most Divinity schools or schools that offer Christian theology via DL are less well recognized (than TEDS, or DTS, or Fuller for example) in the theology field and offer it as a "side" to what they really do. So Liberty, etc. wouldn't be a good career move for me. I also don't really care to do a US ThM because they will slap me with what ATS calls "MDiv equivalency" which means I have to redo my BA in theology and education before getting the degree.

I am leaning more and more in the direction that the Hons BA is less than an MDiv, especially when one considers what a particular denomination may require for ordination. The BD looks like more, and more academically focused.

Honestly, the question I'm asking is, from the vantage point of one who has a BA in theology and education and an MA in Old Testament, what is the next step in doing UK DL to get into a UK PhD in theology? I don't want to go back and do another BA, and I wonder if that's what a BD is or not in the eyes of UK academes. If the BD is, generally, something people do as the preparation work for PhD work, I'll do it. But is that what it is designed for? I would rather do that than an MTh, since it is so specialized. But the BD is, as Americans will look at it, another BA. That irks me about the option, and I'm wanting some kind of confirmation that in the UK it is precisely NOT that---"another BA."

 

This may be a dumb question, but have you thought of applying directly to a Ph.D. in Theology? I'm nearly certain that I once encountered someone who did an M.A. in Biblical Studies with emphasis on New Testament, and went on to a UK Ph.D. in Theology without a hitch.


Cheers,

 

Thanks Tom

Yes, this I might do this. However, I think schools are "looking for breadth" as well as the PhD when they interview teachers.

Also, honestly, I don't think I'll get into the PhD program of choice with what I have. I'm going to need something else. Don't get me wrong. What I've done shows a lot, and my thesis too. So they'll know that I can write a good dissertation. But I'm going to need to do something in between to catch up on the latest discussions and broaden my theological vision, not only to hone in on a topic, but to have "breadth" when I apply later to some schools.

I know it sounds like I'm making it more complicated than it really is, but I don't think so.

 

************************************************

I believe I could show without much effort that in the USA the MDiv is simply new nomenclature for the B.D.--same program, same purpose, same level! At Unizul the BA is undergrad but the Honours BA is a grad degree which has as prerequisite a three year BA and the curriculum is five "three hour papers and takes one year to finish." But the MA has as a prerequisite a four year BA and one writes a "dissertation"(our thesis). So, the MA seems more advanced than the Honours BA! I'd bet the UK programs are similar. But the prerequisite for the ThM there (UZ) is the four year Honours BTh degree. It appears to me that the USA ThM is a more lengthy program as usually the three years mDiv is the prerequisite.

If you have an MA in OT, I think you'd be accepted into a ThM in the UK or in SA in Theology. I would NOT shoot for a BA even if it is "Honours!" This is going backwards! Still if I were you, I'd go the PhD or DPhil route and forget the MDiv/ThM altogether! Surely you had some theology in your MA? Propose a thesis/dissertation problem which bridges OT Studies and Systematics.

But Chris, didn't you just start a thread on the EdD? Are you planning two degrees in divergent areas? Ambitious!



***********************************************

 

thanks Bill

Yes, I did just do a thread on the EdD. As I told North, I'm honestly in a nowhere land right now. I actually, practically get paid at my job to surf the net (what a dream job!) So I'm learning all I can about these options.

I have rightfully scrapped all other American degrees, and I'm on a fence between doing an MTh or a BD. I did have some theology classes in my MA, but only about 3 or 4. The MA in OT at TEDS is almost ALL hebrew. That's not a good Sys. Theo. prep. So I could just suck it up, write an MTh thesis with a reader who will let me visit the UK periodically, or take BD classes via correspondence at U of London.

Do you consider a BD to be the same as a BA? What do you think (dare I say it???) my CALVINIST brother?

 

or...

or i could propose a dissertation that bridges the two disciplines like you said. i would rather get a phd in pure theology so i could market myself to teach either. get it?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris:

B.D., University of London does sound impressive. Further, in my opinion doing a ThM thesis is not likely to ground you in systematics. Your topic will be too narrow. You need a year of systematic theology at least which surveys major doctrines. So were the BD at U of L to be classes, as opposed to thesis only, that might be good. Some not so good features might follow.

In the USA, the B.D. is an title for what now is the MDiv But the MDiv is not10 classes , it is three years of full time grad work...see the confusion? Further, I just scanned three UK schools: Trinity College in Bristol, Belfast Bible college, and London Bible College. None offer a BD (but all a ThM) and of the cumulative three faculties only one member had a B.D.! Do you want an uncommon degree?

OK, here's the plan: You enroll in two schools simultaneously. For your "background" you take 60 units at ACCS in Bible and Theology and end up with the DMin. Coincidentally you enroll in a thesis PhD in a UK school. HA! Now you not only are grounded "in the faith" and have done scholarly reasearch but you also have two docs!

Whatcha think, am I a genius or not?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Not a bad plan (the extended DMin program). It takes a unique individual such as yourself to do two programs at once. I think it would stress me out. I was just thinking about Open Theism and thinking that God did not know you were going to enrol in two programs or He might have said something.

North

 

Bill

Does ACCS stand for "Accredited Christian Studies," or "A Christopher-Crucified with Studies"... or what?

I'm sure interested in Open Theism, but only if that means Open Enrollment. Otherwise, I'm pretty much Open to whatever.

I like the plan. I was actually parousing some stuff last nite on D Min stuff. But all my friends say the DMin is a "Min-D." You know, it's been "D-Min-ized." I don't want to be D-Minized if I don't have to be. Maybe, if I could just exorcize my TEDS degree and start over!

 

Re: or...

=======================================
If I were you (but with my aspirations, but not my age, or something like that, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'D DO!!!

Chris, it is possible even in a doc dissertation to cover much area. eg, in mine I am synthesizing the functional subordination of the Son into TEN cognate doctrines. This requires study which is both broad and specific!

There should be tons of problems you could use to connect your OT aptitude to an issue in Systematics. Here's one off the top of my head and it in no is way occasioned by the remarks of a local heretic: "A Lexical and Exegetical Investigation of the Usage of 'Yada" as Evidence of the Aberrant Aspect of The Arminianian Election Doctrine."
========================================

 

but Bill

I looked on the website for St. Andrews/St. Mary's and several of them have BD's...

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am going to thrash Open Theism real good in my UZ chap two (unless, of course, my Super is one! )

Just began my first ACCS class North. We' re classmates!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Bill----

This still leaves me with the issue of getting into the "School of choice." That is, since I'm young, I would rather take any time I need to take to get into one of these top schools like Cambridge, Glasgow, St. Andrews, etc. I have already written them and they mostly advise me not to apply without something else.

 

Re: Bill

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Chris:

The DMin is not a PhD, but many US profs DO teach with it!!

60 units after the MA sounds fairly respectable to me!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Maybe...

Maybe I'll get a PhD in Education at Andrews University and then (if they have theology electives) take electives in theology. Teach education somewhere and then work on a Ph.D. in the UK.