U.K. Ed.D. Expectations

Greetings to all,

From reading a previous post (I can't remember which one) the Ed.D. @ a UK university is considered a lesser degree than it would be in the US.

 

is this true? why?

 

Not quite sure what you are getting at!

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this posting. Do mean a British university EdD is not as good as a US university EdD or do you mean that in the UK the EdD is not held in as high a regard in academia, etc as it is in the USA?

Actually, the British EdD varies extremely widely both in cost, time commitment and academic quality. Some universities offer the programme so that the thesis (dissertation) element can be completed by doing two 20,000 words assignments. Some academics believe this is not demonstrating doctoral skills, abilities, etc because the candidate should be able to write and sustain that writing to at least a 50,000 words thesis. Typically, the PhD in the Uk requires an 80,000 words thesis. The EdD candidate also has to undertake course work. The first EdD to be introduced in the UK (just over ten years ago) was at the University of Bristol Graduate Graduate School of Education. Bristyol is a very highly regarded university and the Education Department is also highly ranked. Yours truly used to teach and examine on the Bristol EdD. Leeds, Durham et al followed shortly thereafter (modelled themselves on Bristol) and now many universities offer the programme. In the early days there was a very strong emphasis on making sure people submitted the 50,000 words thesis and at least 30,000 words in writing total for course work so the EdD candidate could be seen to be subitting something similar to the PhD candidate!

'telfax'

 

Thanks 'telfax,'

I apologize for the lack of clarity on my posting. What I meant was that it doesn't appear to me that the Ed.D. has the same academic reputation IN the UK as the PhD. I discerned this from a previous post where someone had made a similar comment and then looked at several schools. This implies, to me, that the schools which offer the Ed.D. in the UK are probably being pounced on by americans who want the british presige and the easy degree that is equivalent to the Ph.D.

I'm considering doing an Ed.D. and I'm concerned that the reputation of the degree is degenerating. For instance, I phoned USC yesterday, since I'm moving to So. Cal., and they now, as far as I can tell initially, offer the Ed.D. on four campuses (including the main campus). However, the Ph.D. in Edu. is only offered on the main campus. This shows to me that larger, more established schools are making decisions that pair down the quality of one degree and making the other less attainable because of the proliferation of options (emergence of Argosy, etc.) The "Ph.D." will always be guarded, but the Ed.D., it seems schools are saying, "is just plain easier to get~~so let's offer it in multiple formats and guard the Ph.D more carefully." Classically, in the US, as far as I know, the Ed.D. has always been considered the equivalent of the Ph.D., and perhaps for educators, more important to obtain. But now it seems it is becoming easier and easier to obtain. For those who, like me, are considering an Ed.D. to teach education, the climate changes should be considered carefully since there will continue to be a greater exponent of Ed.D.'s.

Chris G

 

Who offers the least and most demanding DL programs in MEd orEdD, IYHO?

 

EdD in USA

Actually, I've always thought that in the US the EdD has not been seeen as comparable with the PhD. All the academics I know in the Us ( and I know many) would see the EdD as a 'professional' degree and the PhD as an academic degree and the PhD is perceived (as in the UK) as the 'crown'!

I would match a UK EdD (at most, but not) as comparable with a PhD in education at many, many US institutions.

'telfax'

 

"corona mendax ardens veneno..."

 

I have already posted on this before, but since the topic continues to emerge, I welcome the opportunity to put my one and a half cents in:

There are indeed a few colleges of education that offer separate program tracks for Ph.D. and Ed.D. but they are (very) few and far between. The idea that the Ph.D. would be a research degree and the Ed.D. a practitioner's degree is now all but gone.

There have been only a few major studies comparing the Ph.D. to the Ed.D. but they have all come to the same conclusion: there is no real difference between the two degrees. The coursework for both degrees is virtually the same, the research requirements (coursework in research methods, statistics and a dissertation) are also the same. A study of Ph.D. vs. Ed.D. dissertations did not find that one was more rigorous than the other.

It is true that many people harbor the opinion that the Ed.D. is somehow a "lesser" degree than the Ph.D. Other than subjective feelings, there does not appear to be any realistic basis for this opinion.

Anthony Pina
Adjunct Faculty of Education
California State University, San Bernardino

 

I would also like to add.

Since I posted this question, I have been talking to several friends who are either teachers with a Ph.D., Ed.D. or are candidating for positions. Those who already has a teaching position say, "it doesn't matter, there's no difference." Those who don't have a position but are either studying or candidating for a spot say, "definitely, go for the Ph.D." This is a thought provoking contrast.

 

i'm sorry, i keep messing up in this thread. "those who already HAVE" a position. I may never get a ph.d with this habit. Especially via DL!

 

The education degree that you receive (either Ph.D. or Ed.D.) depends upon the school that you attend. If you were at Hardvard or Columbia, you would not have a choice--you would receive an Ed.D. If, however you were at, say University of California, Riverside, you would only have the option for a Ph.D. in education. If you happen to be in one of the (very) few programs that offer both a Ph.D. and an Ed.D. in the same area, it is true that most would choose the Ph.D.

Tony

 

In certain respects, the difference between the Ph.D. and Ed.D., at least to some, it sort of the difference between a USA Lexus and a top-of-the-line Toyota in Japan. It is my understanding that Toyota created the Lexus concept for the US market based on research that indicated Americans would not likely accept a luxury-car with a Toyota nameplate. Thus, Lexus here, Toyota there. (People are prediciting similar difficulties with VW's plans to market luxury cars under the VW nameplate).

There is no question in my mind that the Ph.D. is perceived with more respect than the Ed.D. In many, but not all cases, there may be real differences between the requirements for the degrees but in most respects, the requirements are essentially the same. This, however, cannot be proven directly since most universities offer one or the other. (As opposed to the many schools which offer both Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs in psychology). Thus, the differences can be just as easily attributed to school philosophy rather than degree standards.

I believe that the Ed.D. is the most frequently conferred doctorate degree in the field of education. Perhaps that forced an academic acceptance that Ed.D. would not otherwise have obtained if it were conferred with less frequency. The Psy.D., for example, still has not obtained the level of acceptance that the Ph.D. has, and thus, most faculty in graduate programs of psychology hold the Ph.D. even though there are enough Psy.D.'s out there who would love to be on staff.

Jeffrey Levine, Ed.D.

 

Originally posted by Jeffrey Levine
In certain respects, the difference between the Ph.D. and Ed.D., at least to some, it sort of the difference between a USA Lexus and a top-of-the-line Toyota in Japan. It is my understanding that Toyota created the Lexus concept for the US market based on research that indicated Americans would not likely accept a luxury-car with a Toyota nameplate. Thus, Lexus here, Toyota there. (People are prediciting similar difficulties with VW's plans to market luxury cars under the VW nameplate).

TONY: Jeffrey, I'm not certain that your analogy applies precisely to this situation (although it is an excellent appraisal of US sensibilities). Actually, The Ed.D. was started by Harvard in the 1920s by folks who considered education to be an "applied" profession, rather than a discipline of study. The idea was to create a professional degree along the lines of a law or medical degree, the intent being to replace the education Ph.D with the Ed.D. Unfortunately, too many in education opted to retain the Ph.D. The coursework and research requirements for the Ed.D. were (and are), in nearly all cases, made identical to those of the Ph.D. While it is certainly true that some colleges' programs and coursework are stronger or weaker than others, there is no difference between the two degrees on any national level.

There is no question in my mind that the Ph.D. is perceived with more respect than the Ed.D. In many, but not all cases, there may be real differences between the requirements for the degrees but in most respects, the requirements are essentially the same. This, however, cannot be proven directly since most universities offer one or the other. (As opposed to the many schools which offer both Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs in psychology). Thus, the differences can be just as easily attributed to school philosophy rather than degree standards.

TONY: While it is certainly true than many (if not most) consider the Ed.D. to be somehow a lesser degree than the Ph.D., there is no OBJECTIVE basis for such an opinion. In very few cases are there any "real differences between the requirements for the degrees." In fact, over the years, some good research has been done in this area. I am in possession of most of the major studies comparing the Ph.D. and Ed.D. in education. One study of over 600 graduate schools of education exmanied the required coursework, research and statistics preparation, and dissertation requirements, and found no significant difference between Ph.D. and Ed.D. programs. Another study analyzed over 1,000 doctoral dissertations in education and found no difference in academic rigor between Ph.D. and Ed.D. dissertations. The only major difference found was that Ed.D. dissertations made more frequent use of survey data.

Your statement, however, that program differences are attributed to school philosophy is right on the mark.

I believe that the Ed.D. is the most frequently conferred doctorate degree in the field of education. Perhaps that forced an academic acceptance that Ed.D. would not otherwise have obtained if it were conferred with less frequency.

TONY: You are correct about the Ed.D. being awarded more frequently by colleges of education. I also believe that your statement about acceptance is also correct. My observation is that the Ed.D. should have been allowed to develop separately into a professional program (like law and medicine) without a corresponding Ph.D. in education. If the Ph.D. were to remain, it should have been offered only in the areas of educational studies or educational research. Medical research works this may (e.g. M.D.s going on to receive Ph.D.s)

By the way, I spent three years in a Ph.D. program at Arizona State University before accepting a full-time position in my field at a California college (the position required only a masters degree). When I decided to return to doctoral studies after several years in the profession, I investigated and was accepted to a number of Ph.D. and Ed.D. programs and found an Ed.D. program that was the best fit for my needs. I am now in the midst of the dissertation and can say most assuredly that the Ph.D. was no less demanding a program than the Ed.D.

I knew that my file folder full of Ed.D. versus Ph.D. research would be good for something some day! Thanks for such a fun forum.

Tony Pina
Adjunct Faculty of Instructional Technology
College of Education
California State U. San Bernardino

 

Can't disagree....but!

The original thread here was about the parity of esteem granted to a british university EdD re a british phD in education. I cannot disagree with much of what has been posted here in response. Like all walks of life there are eds and there are EdDs - even in the USA! I recently saw an EdD dissertation from a regionally accredited (well known but not highly ranked in the US) institution and it was dreadful. Indeed, the principal of the RA college in London, England who had hired the person with this EdD told me he'd never hire anyone from the institution again if this was the standard of work found acceptable for an EdD!

However, to go back to the UK situation. By and large the EdD is seen as a different type of doctorate to the PhD and the latter will generally be seen as the superior. But then again....an EdD from Bristol will be seen as very different from one of the newer and less respected British universities and the same will apply to the PhD. Whatever you do you can't win! At the end of the day a person has to go for what s/he wants to do and believes is right and take the instutition that best serves his/her needs and interests.

'telafx'

 

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Tony

Thanks for your understanding response. I thought I might get flamed a little for my remarks above. My area in the EdD was Remedial Reading. I think some classes were "fluffy." The entrance requirements included a certain score on the quantitative and verbal portions of the GRE. The head of the dept surprised me when he said my verbal score was higher than his. Nevertheless, he was (probably now passed on) a smart man (hired me as TA and I liked him a lot!

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I think that a reason why education degrees of often given less respect than other doctorates is that other disciplines require significant undergraduate work in a field to qualify for graduate study in that field. However, you can get your B.A. in amost anything and go straight into a graduate program in education. to my knowledge, you cannot receive an undergraduate degree in education in the state of California.

Many education masters program (and perhaps even some doctorates) include introductory courses that may be more suited for undergraduate study. I have attended graduate school at three universities in three states. In each case, nearly all of the docotral courses were open to masters students as well.

As far as U.K. recognition of Ed.D. as being inferior, I certainly acknowledge that this could be the case. Of the dozen or so studies on the Ph.D. vs. Ed.D., a few have mentioned the widepread perception/opinon that the Ph.D. is superior. Unfortunately, no research has been done to determine the reason(s) for this phenomemon. If I weren't so busy with my dissertation on distance learning, t might be an interesting study.

Tony
Ed.D. Candidate, La Sierra University, Riverside, CA

 

I think that one reason why education PH.D./Ed.D. degrees are often given less respect than doctorates in other disciplines is that other disciplines require significant undergraduate work in a field to qualify for graduate study in that field. However, you can get your B.A. in almost anything and go straight into a graduate program in education. To my knowledge, you cannot receive an undergraduate degree in education from any university in the State of California.

Many education masters program (and perhaps even some doctorates) include introductory courses that may be more suited for undergraduate study. I have attended graduate school at three universities in three states. In each case, nearly all of the doctoral courses were open to masters students as well.

As far as U.K. recognition of Ed.D. as being inferior, I certainly acknowledge that this could be the case (I do not live in the U.K.) Of the dozen or so studies on the Ph.D. vs. Ed.D., a few have mentioned the widepread perception/opinon that the Ph.D. is superior. Unfortunately, no research has been done to determine the reason(s) for this phenomemon. If I weren't so busy with my dissertation on distance learning, it might be an interesting study to conduct.

Tony
Ed.D. Candidate, La Sierra University, Riverside, CA

 

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Yep! Get a BA in English then do a second major in Education (in my case for the old Calif certificate for life) or do an Med or such so you can teach high school English! The assumption is to convey your knowledge about English effectively requires 30 units on how to teach!

But, get an MA in English then study for a PhD in same , say by research, thesis only, and wallah! You can teach English at grad level with no Ed courses...go figure!.

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